6.5 Junior Equipment

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Canadian Paddler
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6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by Canadian Paddler » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:15 pm

Jointly proposed by Manvers Waterfront Boat Club / Manchester Canoe Club / Kingstone Kayak Club
Young paddlers should be able to develop their techniques in appropriately sized boats, regardless of their division. With the
increase of younger paddlers coming into the sport and the potential for their progression, the following rule change should be
made: ...................................................................................................................................................................... Page 75
3.3.3 At divisions 2 to 4 competitions, and for J12 paddlers in all divisions, all white water boat types may compete without to regards to boat specifications provided the boat meets all applicable safety requirements as defined in Rule 3.3.4 and 3.4
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points

Nick Penfold
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by Nick Penfold » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:53 pm

The proposal is that, so that young paddlers can develop their technique in appropriately sized boats, J12s should be allowed to paddle in any sort of boat at any ranking race.

There are no J12s in Prem. In Div 1 there are very few - we began this year with just one, and there were only nine, across all classes, at the end of the year. Each year is much the same, as one year's bigger J12s become the next year's J14s. This proposal complicates enforcement across the whole of Div 1 for the sake of a tiny number of paddlers.

I'm all for continuing to let paddlers use any sort of boat at Div 2, 3 and 4 races, but not at Div 1s and Prems.

Steve Holmes
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by Steve Holmes » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:29 pm

Harry Evans is J11, and at the time he got promoted was paddling a standard Colt. Had he not completely trashed it in France over the summer, he would have had to put wings on it in order to use it in div 1. My daughter has just gotten a Flash, and although it’s unlikely to get her to div 1, it’s probable that she will move on to a Colt, which would see her to div 1, assuming she gets there as a J12.

JimW
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by JimW » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:06 pm

My only issue with this is that age is not a good indicator of size and strength, to be really fair it should be based on paddler weight rather than age, but that would be even more problematic to administer.
I'm sure there are petite 13 and 14 year olds using undersized and/or light boats in division 2, or who only moved out of one on promotion to div 1. In fact I am looking at a boat which one of our J14s damaged a few weeks ago that was 7.8kg before I started work on it, it needs a major repair but I am confident it will still be under 9kg when I'm finished. Oh, and my tape reckons it is only 58.5cm wide too. So what if he gets promoted 3 races into 2020? He won't have outgrown the boat by then!

lesf
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by lesf » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:09 pm

When was the last time anyone checked boat diamensions at a Div 1 race (other than boat weights)?
Even at Prem I only remember it being done at the British Open (and probably selection race - but I've never been to those).

If you enforce that junior boats don't meet the rules, do you start checking and enforcing for all boat and diamensions? E.g. Checking and enforcing the diamension of the end of boats etc

Steve Holmes
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by Steve Holmes » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:41 am

Ok, because I genuinely don’t know!
If Chloe were to be selected for the Pan-Celtic team and choose to race at Tully, which is alongside div1, would she need a larger boat for that? Or if she entered the British Champs alongside HPP div 1 would she need a larger boat then?
The first is purely hypothetical (for now-I don’t think she’ll be ready for Tully div 1! The second isn’t hypothetical, she’s quite keen on trying to be J10 champion of Britain!

JimW
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by JimW » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:10 pm

The rules for the race are based on the host division so I think she would need a larger boat, or you could gamble on it not being checked if the race isn't an International (i.e. British Open) or GB selection race. Any organiser could take it upon themselves to apply the rules though, historic lack of boat gauges is not the same as having a rule to exempt youngsters from the boat rules!

I said before that my only issue was about it being aged based when age is not always a good indicator, in fact there is another issue (and maybe more I haven't thought of), and that is that it isn't really fair to classify people with exemptions from a rule in the same set of results as everyone who has to follow that rule. But separating classification doesn't work with our points based divisional system.

I do think that in principle it is a good idea to allow smaller kids to use smaller boats, I just don't think it can be so easily slotted into our system, it would require a bit of a rethink of divisional structure. Off the top of my head, maybe a division 1.5 where smaller kids can go if they wish to use undersized boats, still racing at div 1 races but scoring separately from division 1 and without requiring promotion, simply move up when you are ready to paddle a full size boat (but points accrued are not comparable to div 1 points so can't be ported, see I can even poke holes in the idea before I finish having it!).

Mike Mitchell
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by Mike Mitchell » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:22 pm

Jim, I can remember Racing at Tully Div1 Pan Celtic and you had a Scottish Master in the Team event in a Plastic Pig. Nobody complains as it was all good fun. But if they had come first it could be a different story.
My Vote would be let anyone paddle anything, except at selection races.

Nigel
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by Nigel » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:38 pm

I fully understand Steve's point, I'm in this frame as we speak. After a lot of thought and searching I've gone for a bigger boat for my Harry, he's done the double 1 at Llandysul in it and scored a clean run each day, that's impressive in it's own right but more importantly he would probably have struggled in his colt as by now he is on weight for it, and it did get swamped in bigger water. He has a small Rad now and is thriving in it, although with the extra volume he now struggles on easier water.....I can't win!!!!
I think if I'd have repaired and widened his Colt I'd still be looking at a boat change next season, hes a little lad, but a strong one with it, I think the new boat will see the best of him next season, seeing as he will be the only J12 in Div1 at the season start.
Nigel

JimW
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by JimW » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:46 pm

Mike Mitchell wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:22 pm
Jim, I can remember Racing at Tully Div1 Pan Celtic and you had a Scottish Master in the Team event in a Plastic Pig. Nobody complains as it was all good fun. But if they had come first it could be a different story.
My Vote would be let anyone paddle anything, except at selection races.
Quite off the original topic, but a fair point.

Jerry is Veteran so never affects divisional points. As I understand it he has a medical reason which means he sometimes has to paddle his plastic boat instead of his slalom boat, and often has to decide on the day which he can paddle. The plastic boat is clearly a disadvantage to racing compared to a slalom boat, on top of which if he has to paddle it he is probably not at his best that day anyway.

So in Pan Celtic terms where the Vets/Jnr race is held at a div 1 if he was the top Scottish Vet in his plastic boat and took the PC points for Scotland ahead of a Vet from another country who was in a slalom boat that would be an interesting case for the PC team managers to argue over! There would be a spin off argument that some countries host the Jnr/Vets race with a div 2 (which is what Jerry normally paddles as a Vet) so why should different rules be applicable to different legs of the PCC? That doesn't just affect Jerry, it potentially affects J12 and J14 paddlers from lower divisions entering as Open competitor a for PCC - they should also be in a fully compliant boat to race PCC at a div 1, but don't have to to race a leg at a div 2. And it highlights another issue with the proposed J12 cutoff - the Jnr/Vet PCC is J12 and J14 where J12s can be selected to make up J14 numbers (I doubt this ever actually happens, J14 is usually bigger) but could be in different boats. In fact, I think this point that we hold the J12 and J14 competitions (not just PCC but Scottish champs too) separately from J16 and up is a good case at least for revising the proposal to include J14, and just assume that once any paddler gets too heavy for un undersized boat they will migrate to a fully compliant one irerespective of their age?

Mikes suggestion to extend it to every one and every division except selection has some merit, but I still think we should have a level playing field in at least the top division. It we took all the boat rules away we would no doubt see seniors in 5 or 6kg boats again for domestic races.

Steve Holmes
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by Steve Holmes » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:03 pm

It was never the intention of the proposal to get round the weight limit. Both Chloe’s boats are more than 9kg, it’s just the length (3m and 3.1m) and width (not very!) that are the issue. A limit of 9kg could still be insisted on.
I still find it bonkers that at the moment anyone racing at J12 level in the PCC at Tully, or competing for the J12 British Champs, would need a boat with dimensions that were originally specified for adult racing.

JimW
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by JimW » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:20 pm

I'd say the weight was one of the important dimensions for kids. There are a lot of kids (J12 and above) paddling boats that meet the length and breadth dimensions but were built to the old 8kg rule...

DavidDickson
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by DavidDickson » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:23 pm

Jim W is correct - its more about a paddler using a boat that is the correct size for their size and weight.

Would you put someone with child size 4 feet in a pair of adult size 10 football boots and try and teach them to dribble a football ? Of course not.

If a new paddler learns to paddle in a boat that is the correct size then they will learn to get a feel for the water beneath them, they will be able to use the edges of the boat, they will be able to sink the tail to turn the boat.

If they start in a big boat that is too big, they will not learn any of this.

A light paddler in a large boat will find it turns easier as there is less of the hull submerged in the water, but it will most likely be slower in a straight line due to it's shorter waterline length. in effect it will be like paddling a shorter boat.

The weight rule is crazy and a complete waste of time. There is no doubt that a lighter boat will turn with less effort than a heavier boat but unless all boats are made so that the 9kg is evenly distributed throughout the skin of the boat then this rule is not effective and is a waste of time.

If you take a 75kg paddler and put them in a 9 kg boat that is actually 8kg with a 1kg weight tucked under the seat. Then it is just like a 76kg paddler paddling an 8kg boat so they will still have an advantage over a 75kg paddler paddling an 9kg boat where the weight is evenly distributed throughout the boat.

We used to get people picking up my son's boat and trying to get him disqualified when he paddled a Nomad Energiser saying it was too short, narrow and light when he was 9 years old, weighed 26kg and was in div 1. I wasn't trying to gain him an advantage over others by putting him in this boat, He would have found it easier to turn a bigger boat and it would have been more forgiving in bigger water. I was trying to give him the opportunity to learn how to paddle a boat properly and get a proper feel for the water. We weighted his energiser to the regulation weight and it made absolutely no difference to how he and the boat performed.

Its quite simple - if we want to develop good paddlers then we should allow them to race boats that enable them to make use of the design features of the boat and develop effective technique as early as possible.

CeeBee
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Re: 6.5 Junior Equipment

Post by CeeBee » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:25 pm

Completely agree Davy

Jonny's coaches and fellow paddlers never considered that his boat was unfair and it is hard to undo bad habits if equipment is too big.

Sadly, there was a parent who did try to cause trouble by claiming this was cheating which seemed a tad harsh on a 9 year old :(

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