6.2 Entry Fees

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
chriswilde
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 8:41 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by chriswilde » Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:38 pm

Hi all, some healthy debate.

Privately I have chatted with a few people and wonder if a suggestion could be to go with (div 2) £10 entry fee with an option to enhance by up to 50% if needed to make a race feesible if needed. I agree we do not want to encourage competition among races in terms of discounted entry fees. I would suggest that organiser might want to think a little creatively by perhaps including for the enhanced fee a coached session, extra official practise run or team race. All could be arranged fairly inexpensively, or be it with a bit more help From volunteers.

Where we are hiring a venue such as HPP or lee valley etc surely there is an option that extreme slalom, free style or whitewater racing could be run alongside to share some cost. These disciplines face the same challenges with access to water and there would likely be some crossover with paddlers between disciplines?

JBS
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by JBS » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:14 am

Real terms: My stanndard family entry fees for a Div 2 will go from £60.9 to £105

The proposed increase is too much too soon. Do some research, look at the unintended consequences!

My entries are a competitive K1M and a C1W,Vet and C2 the latter three are simply entering because it makes it an inclusive family weekend. When it becomes less inclusive because those fees are too high for us to continue with the current number of events we do, then the other income streams will feel the effect. Two less campers and two less people munching burgers etc during the day......and less chance that the younger sibling is going to be inspired to take up the sport because he won't be there to see it.....he'll be filling his weekends paddling a river without gates with whichever one of us is not at the slalom :(

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by Dee » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:28 pm

How much does it cost to you to get to/stay at the competitions though?

The problem, as Peter says, is that any research is flawed on the getting "Turkeys to vote for Christmas" principle.

When we introduced online entries we had three options to cover costs
1. pay them out of our own pocket - non-starter, no-one would expect me to fork out thousands for privilege of running the system.
2. charge the organisers - they couldn't afford it either and I really needed organisers on board to stand any chance of success
3. charge a booking fee - In my informal research a lot of people swore blind that online entries would never take off if we charged extra for entering online, only a few said they would pay.

We went with option 3 and the rest, as they say, is history.

You might decide not to compete as a family - you might make that decision anyway as kids get older/get promoted - you might protest but then turn up anyway. Trouble is any research is inherently flawed :(
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

paddlerparent
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by paddlerparent » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:06 pm

I cant understand whats wring with the current enhanced entry?

If it was that necessary to raise fee's by so much then surely more clubs would use the enhanced option? so use it next year & see what happens!

djberriman
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by djberriman » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:32 pm

Good point.

The enhanced entry fee rule is to 'cover' costs, not make a profit so would you get permission?

Organisers may not have thought of it due to having to request permission and it also been a relatively new rule.

I guess like late entry fees an event might worry they would lose out to another event on the same or adjacent weekend which is charging differently.

If our event is full we have no need for enhanced entry, but if another event is scheduled on the same weekend we get a drop off, which is made even worse if it is turned into a pan celtic as happened this year.

The events that have so far used enhanced entry are probably those that can generally anticipate demand better and have a waiting list. It was designed and generally used by events that even when full can't meet costs.

Food for thought!

JBS
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by JBS » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:33 pm

An average (is there such a thing) weekend costs us £120-£140 depending on camping fees and distance. Pinkston being more and HPP less. Add another £44.10 to that and it will have a real effect on what races we do. Adding at least 25% to the cost of the weekend.

Alison
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:03 am
Location: Cheltenham

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by Alison » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:39 pm

Is there any data on how many events have had to ask for financial assistance from the committee due to not covering costs and the reasons for this e.g lack of numbers or 1 day cancelled?

To be honest as an organiser the bigger concern for me is the dropping competitor numbers along with struggles to find volunteers and I can't see a price increase helping either of these.

djberriman
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by djberriman » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:04 am

I doubt there is a single event that covers actual costs as we have a lot of volunteers who claim no expenses.

This isn't however about covering costs (thus the event costs the club £0) it is about clubs being able to make a reasonable 'profit' to allow them to encourage more participation, improve facilities, renew/upgrade kit etc. I guess if you added a reasonable amount for this to the event then again no one would break even, its just we don't charge this extra bit as a direct cost of the event.

lesf
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 5:15 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by lesf » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:45 pm

Ok from an organisers perspective - both of the Washburn Div 2 races lost money this year! Approx £100 and £300 - that's with the income from catering and car parking - take those out and the loss is much greater.

In previous year these have occasionally made a slight loss which usually down to numbers attending due to a clash on the calendar - and when they have made a profit is usually down to the catering etc rather than the entry fees. To be honest, if we are making a profit including this additional income we are happy and have stayed away from enhanced fees. It's fairly likely that next year the Washburn Div2 races will have an enhanced fee if these increases go through. But will an enhanced fee put more people off coming - personally I don' think so looking at the numbers at other Div 2's with enhanced fees.

In terms of cost there is very little difference between the running a Div 1 or a Div 2 at Washburn - only that we get a £200 discount on water fees for a div 2 (which I'm fighting to keep). The big different is entry fees and (at the moment) pretty much knowing a div 1 will be full with more than double the entries of a div 2.

Equally I have previously run events at a club site where the only costs were levies and prizes, which wouldn't need the increased fees.

lesf
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 5:15 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by lesf » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:48 pm

Hiring a pumped course estimated at £750 per day so £5 per entry
- I wish!
I've just paid the bill for Tees Barrage

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by Dee » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:04 pm

Out of curiosity I just got out an old year book (at random) from 2003 and looked up the CPI from 2003 which is 57%!

Back in 2003 we had discounted rates for double competitions and different rates for juniors in lower divisions, however using the index, if we were to pay the equivalent amount today:
  • Prem/1s would pay £21.59 for a single and £34.54 for a double
  • Div 2 Adults would pay £15.31 for a single and £25.51 for a double
  • Div 2 Juniors would pay £11.78 for a single and £18.06 for a double
  • Div 3 Adults would pay £13.74 for a single and £21.59 for a double
  • Div 3 Juniors would pay £9.03 for a single and £16.49 for a double
  • Div 4 Adults would pay £8.24 for a single and £14.52 for a double
  • Div 4 Juniors would pay £5.50 for a single and £8.24 for a double
In all but the case of a double div 4 junior these are considerably higher than we actually charge - in some cases (not all) over £8 as much.

So we are charging less and (anecdotally at least) numbers have dropped.

2003 was chosen at random - I'm sure we could do a similar exercise with other years.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

PeterC
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:14 am
Location: Fife Scotland

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by PeterC » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:42 pm

Thanks for the suggestion of team runs Steve.

These would not impact on the cost base at the lower divisions but would where water time represents part of the cost. I would be happy that this is pushed.

Dee, while I accept that the rules imply the minimum fee I am quite happy as part of the debate for organisers to propose in addition to enhanced fees that they want to run with reduced fees and accept all the risks and I cannot see why I would want to object if a club wants to invest in Slalom in this way. My concern would be that it could be used to generate competition between events.

As to frightening paddlers away from joining the sport I am sure we need to consider many things not just fees and make it an event that is enjoyed by not just the paddlers but also their support structure whatever that is and we need to be more welcoming.

Austerity has had a part to play and is continuing to have an effect not just on Slalom but across many activities for young people.

PeterC
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:14 am
Location: Fife Scotland

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by PeterC » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:54 pm

Alison - we have had several requests to the Slalom committee for financial support in 2019 but this is the tip of an iceberg. Some are making a loss and not asking for help and many are probably making a loss and not really recognising it as there account do not include everything.

we can do more to make racing more spectator friendly and I would encourage that we do this particularly at the lower division races.

chriswilde
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 8:41 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by chriswilde » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:17 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:54 pm
Alison - we have had several requests to the Slalom committee for financial support in 2019 but this is the tip of an iceberg. Some are making a loss and not asking for help and many are probably making a loss and not really recognising it as there account do not include everything.
According to the 2019 slalom committee Minutes I could only see one reference to financial support to clubs and that was to Manchester Cc unless this information is not included in the minutes?

chriswilde
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 8:41 pm

Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by chriswilde » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:23 pm

[quote=Dee post_id=21269 time=1574172261
  • Prem/1s would pay £21.59 for a single and £34.54 for a double
  • Div 2 Adults would pay £15.31 for a single and £25.51 for a double
  • Div 2 Juniors would pay £11.78 for a single and £18.06 for a double
  • Div 3 Adults would pay £13.74 for a single and £21.59 for a double
  • Div 3 Juniors would pay £9.03 for a single and £16.49 for a double
  • Div 4 Adults would pay £8.24 for a single and £14.52 for a double
  • Div 4 Juniors would pay £5.50 for a single and £8.24 for a double
[/quote]

Taking the junior fees for double races (which is what the majority of entries would be) then we aren’t too far out of what would seem reasonable fees!

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