6.2 Entry Fees

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Canadian Paddler
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by Canadian Paddler » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:43 am

Chris, applications for support are not normally included in minutes. We try to deal with the applications quickly, not wait for the next meeting. For example there are two cases being considered at the moment, and one of them has taken too log in the process so I am pushing it now.

Should they be part of the minutes as a regular thing. Well as Secretary I did not think so, but perhaps my replacement (Or the ACM) will have a different view.

Dee - no surprise that we are close or below CPI increase. The rules say entry fees go up by the LOWER of RPI or CPI. Perhaps this should also be reviewed? To discuss at ACM.
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chriswilde
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by chriswilde » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:39 pm

Thanks for the answer Colin, just trying to see the facts.

I would think that most of the races I have been to this year would have paid their costs, with the exception of the hpp div 2. I am happy to be corrected, the information seems to be out there somewhere?

My real concern is for the survival of the sport.... if fees need to rise then so be it, but if we don’t have the facts and figures this is hard to support.

Chris

Dee
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by Dee » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:16 pm

Canadian Paddler wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:43 am
Dee - no surprise that we are close or below CPI increase. The rules say entry fees go up by the LOWER of RPI or CPI.
I looked up CPI on the web so can't even be sure it was a reliable source. However that aside, I think the difference is quite large in some places. Not because of the CPI/RPI difference - though that will impact but
- we used to charge more for seniors at 2/3/4 races and a while back dropped the senior rate. I don't think (not sure) that we made any adjustment to junior rate to compensate clubs for the income drop.
- when we dropped the double discount we adjusted the individual day rates, but the pressure was probably downwards overall rather than up.

Could be an interesting debate at ACM - don't you wish you were going to be there? :mrgreen: :D :lol:
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Steve Agar
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by Steve Agar » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:02 pm

Dee, if you need accurate figures for CPI or RPI, they are all available on the Office of National Statistics website. Not necessarily the simplest site to navigate, but this link might be a start: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflatio ... /l55o/mm23

Dee
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by Dee » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:33 pm

Steve Agar wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:02 pm
Dee, if you need accurate figures for CPI or RPI, they are all available on the Office of National Statistics website. Not necessarily the simplest site to navigate, but this link might be a start: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflatio ... /l55o/mm23
Thanks but was only idle curiosity really! If anyone else wants to "fight" with the site to get CPI and RPI since 2003 I'll plug into my spreadsheet to get some results
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

CeeBee
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by CeeBee » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:42 pm

So, could we have recommended fees, minimum and maximum fees and each organiser charges what they think is reasonable based on previous years income and expenditure?

This would allow for some of the variation in costs and numbers.

It is probably impossible to have the one size fits all model going forward.

This could be pilotted for 2020 and reviewed throughout the season. An extra box could be added to the jury report to see how the jury/organiser felt about the level of fees they had charged.

GreenPeter
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by GreenPeter » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:25 pm

Late to the bun fight as usual.

I think such a large price increase will be detrimental to the lower divisions.

Div 2 - 4
So how about the idea, that there are to many events chasing a dwindling slice of the pie? (just off to get my tin hat and sit in a bunker)
How many events have had inquorate classes this year? Taking K1 as the major class, how many events had under 20 competitors in K1W or K1M?

So does fewer events mean each event gets more entries?
If it does:
More competitors at the event gives a better atmosphere.
Its more rewarding competing in a fuller class. Will this better experience help retention in the sport?
More entries, better financial reward (if that's the driving force for running events) for the organising club.

Just some ideas.

Dee
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by Dee » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:50 pm

GreenPeter wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:25 pm
So does fewer events mean each event gets more entries?
I don't think so. At lower divisions particularly 3/4 paddlers want "local" competitions. At Div 2 they will travel further but even then other things come into play.

But - others disagree with me. It's hard to prove either way.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
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lesf
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by lesf » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:18 pm

Should we be considering increasing fees over a 2 or 3 years to soften the impact?
So fees go up ahead of the usual inflationary increase, but not the significant jump proposed.

CeeBee
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by CeeBee » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:15 pm

Div 1 and Prem entry fees

These events are national events where committed paddlers attend races all over the country and entry fees are only a small percentage of the actual costs of the sport. I think most paddlers will accept the increase in fees at this level if it is explained why the fees are increasing. It would be wise I think to socialise and explain the increase in fees at this level immediately after the ACM has agreed the revised fees to all the ranked paddlers (or parents) as we have all the e-mail addresses for them. Only a few read chatter and minutes or ACM motions.

Division 2-4 entry fees

Lets say an event needs to take in say £1000 in entry fees over the weekend in 2020 and and in 2019, the event only took in say £700. There are several ways to increase the income -

1. Competitor numbers stay the same, paddlers still get 2 runs and the entry fee increases by almost 50%.

Existing competitors (mainly the parents) will squawk and see they are getting nothing more for their money.

]2. Competitor numbers stay the same, we increase what the paddler is offered so throw in say team runs for free and the entry fee increase by almost 50%

Existing competitors will see they are getting something extra and so although they may not like the increase in fees, it is may be easier to justify and accept

3. the entry fee stays the same and the competitor numbers increase

This would be the preferred way to increase income. However, this would require significantly more effort to generate new paddlers.
Existing competitors still get the same as previous years but a whole new batch of competitors are enticed into the sport.

We've managed through getting a Direct Club Investment Grant from SportScotland for the last 4 years to have been able to fund a paid coach to take groups of juniors aged 8+ and offer then canoeing classes in the summer and then join the club and learn canoeing through slalom. The first slalom they attend is usually one of our club run slaloms and this has increased our entry levels and income generated from the slalom which is then reinvested in the club.

I think the funding model for sport needs revisited. If 1% of the £20M invested into performance for British Canoeing was earmarked for grassroots investment in competitive slalom clubs, we would have £200,000. This could part fund 20 coaches (with the rest of the funding coming from the paddlers) to introduce paddlers to slalom, provide regular coaching each week. This would generate more competitors for events and also parent volunteers to keep the sport alive. These coaches would work with several canoe clubs on different evenings and at weekends to develop a new generation of slalom paddlers.




Do we have stats going back showing the participation levels at each of the slaloms from Div 2-4 to understand whether we have a fall off in participation which is leading to insufficient income?

Mike Mitchell
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by Mike Mitchell » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:04 pm

Option 3 of Cee Bee post has my vote by far.

We shouldn’t be wasting are time at the ACM talking about entry fee increases.
We need to address the lack of paddlers in the lower Divisions.

PeterC
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by PeterC » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:29 pm

Well there is certainly debate and I expect it will not be a 2 minute session at the ACM on this.

I have a sense that there are several things going on here and maybe someone needs to propose an amendment to the motion that we put forward from he committee.

There needs to be fee increases for Prem, Div 1 and I think for Div 2. All of these compete with each other over a wide geographical area and we have seen paddlers travelling some very large distances to compete at Div 2. That said I acknowledge that there is opposition particularly to fees for Div 2 going up as proposed.

I absolutely get that we need to grow the sport and that we are not doing very well at the moment. The sport itself is getting considerably more expensive as we are moving towards paid coaches in many areas and the fees proposed are thus increasingly a smaller amount of the cost of participation in the sport. I would therefore propose that if somebody want to propose an amendment that at Div 3 & 4 where competition between races is not really geographic that organisers can set entry fees below that recommended if they so wish but they would forfeit any right to requesting financial support from the committee if they make a loss. This could perhaps also apply to Div 2 but I would personally feel that it might drive fees down as organisers compete for paddlers. We are seeing issues with Div 2 races and the proposed higher fees would make it easier to plan and run races on the better water that we really do need.

CeeBee
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by CeeBee » Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:37 pm

Peter

Your suggestions seem very reasonable.

So, I would see the amendment to the motion being split into 3 for price increases for Divisions as follows

a) Prem/Div 1
b) Div 2
c) Div 3/4

I did like the suggestion that the increase gets phased in over 2-3 years. I think Prem/Div 1 can increase immediately but any increase at Div 2 , 3 and 4 would be phased in.

lesf
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by lesf » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:38 pm

Or we just forget these increase and encourage organisers to look at their realistic costs and make better use of enhanced entry fees. Particularly when those events are seeking support for making a loss the previous year.
Yes there is concern that an enhanced fees may discourage entries, but I think this is unfounded (in my anecdotal and unscientific opinion).
At Prem and div 1 an enhanced fee doesn't seem to affect the number of entries
At Div 2 - the few events that are at more expensive venues and charge an enhanced fees don't seem to suffer lower numbers because of I think - more likely it is the difficulty of the water limits the entry. Although as an organiser I've dismissed the idea of running a Div2 at Tees as the enhanced fee would be too much more than the standard fee (even with the new fee proposed in this motion!)
At Div 3 & 4 - I don't think there are many events than would need / justify an enhanced entry fee

So maybe until we've encouraged better uptake of the existing routes to increase income at events that are struggling financially we should park this for a year.

humphr
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Re: 6.2 Entry Fees

Post by humphr » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:40 pm

lesf wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:38 pm
Or we just forget these increase and encourage organisers to look at their realistic costs and make better use of enhanced entry fees. Particularly when those events are seeking support for making a loss the previous year.
Yes there is concern that an enhanced fees may discourage entries, but I think this is unfounded (in my anecdotal and unscientific opinion).
At Prem and div 1 an enhanced fee doesn't seem to affect the number of entries
At Div 2 - the few events that are at more expensive venues and charge an enhanced fees don't seem to suffer lower numbers because of I think - more likely it is the difficulty of the water limits the entry. Although as an organiser I've dismissed the idea of running a Div2 at Tees as the enhanced fee would be too much more than the standard fee (even with the new fee proposed in this motion!)
At Div 3 & 4 - I don't think there are many events than would need / justify an enhanced entry fee

So maybe until we've encouraged better uptake of the existing routes to increase income at events that are struggling financially we should park this for a year.
Excellent Les
Another parent

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