The glimmer of hope here is that apparently BC and SCA membership has grown in the last 3 months as people have taken to paddling as a socially distant form or exercise. The problem is we have no idea how many of those will just be using SUPs and cheap inflatables or how many we might actually be able to encourage to try racing, demographics may be more important than numbers, but it may be something.Dee wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:04 pmYou do know the slalom committee consists of normal (well normalish) human beings - not a superman cape in existence that I'm aware of.James Hastings wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:54 pm
Hopefully the Slalom Committee will be able to develop some strategies to mitigate these potential impacts.
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Abandoning the season?....
Re: Abandoning the season?....
Re: Abandoning the season?....
So in 2021 there will be the same paddlers as in 2020 bar one that got promotion with three straight wins. There are four other paddlers that are on two wins. None of these wins were on their home course as far as I’m aware.
With the Div1 girls you have the issue with low entries that only the winner gets promotion points. Looking at what entries there were for the races. It was just under 20 for most of the early races. Never really rising much to where 2nd spot would have gained The much coveted 950. Not only do the Few Div1 girls lose the chance to get promotion early in the season they are now back there next year. The girls who lets say would have had a chance to get promoted in 2021 with the better girls gone will be the ones that suffer more. Same applies to the boys I guess. There are not going to be any more div2 or 3 paddlers as promotion is frozen. There will be only less as they drop out with no racing for a year.
This has been a strange year. Unique you’d hope. Let’s hope this is a once in a lifetime any rule changes could be just for this. Races get cancelled every year. Adding in the three weekends of Racing from this year would make little difference to the many but a lot to the few.
With the Div1 girls you have the issue with low entries that only the winner gets promotion points. Looking at what entries there were for the races. It was just under 20 for most of the early races. Never really rising much to where 2nd spot would have gained The much coveted 950. Not only do the Few Div1 girls lose the chance to get promotion early in the season they are now back there next year. The girls who lets say would have had a chance to get promoted in 2021 with the better girls gone will be the ones that suffer more. Same applies to the boys I guess. There are not going to be any more div2 or 3 paddlers as promotion is frozen. There will be only less as they drop out with no racing for a year.
This has been a strange year. Unique you’d hope. Let’s hope this is a once in a lifetime any rule changes could be just for this. Races get cancelled every year. Adding in the three weekends of Racing from this year would make little difference to the many but a lot to the few.
Another parent
Re: Abandoning the season?....
It could be argued that in 2021 there could be double the amount of promoted as there was only one in 2020.
Another parent
Re: Abandoning the season?....
It is a **** situation we are all in right now, but lets try and focus on rebuilding to have a great season in 2021 instead of worrying about what could have been in 2020. I know there will be juniors who will roll over to U23 and U23's to senior who will have been robbed of the chance to try to win age group titles in their best year for it, it is all very disappointing but largely out of our control. I think we should focus our attention on working out how we are going to get our clubs running normally again, and how we are going to run future races and stuff like that and just let this seasons disappointments go. Hold a wake for 2020 season if you want, but lets try and let it go and concentrate on the future.
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Re: Abandoning the season?....
I like Steve's idea of keeping the points gained at the Start of the season. But include Div1 Points.
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Dee wrote. That bit out of the way, if you did bring an ACM motion, I think my main concern would be the unintended consequences. Eg:
We get too many promotions too early in the season, substantially weakening the lower divisions and potentially resulting in mid-season promotions of paddlers who were not ready. We could then end up seeing more demotions at the end of the season to keep the numbers in the higher divisions anything like reasonable. If the weaker mid-season promotees are short-season protected then a lot of those demotions will be of stronger paddlers (including, potentially those promoted early in the season). This could then have a knock on effect to the following year.
I disagree with some of this Dee. If we get too many promotions at the beginning of the season then that makes space for others to get promoted and gives the next group a chance. Remember we are going to miss a years age group of promotions. This for a J14, J16 or J18 could have been there last chance to qualify for selection or stay on squads. If we are concerned about demoting better paddlers or having higher numbers in some divisions, then we could look at taking away short seasons, for say the first half.
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Dee wrote. That bit out of the way, if you did bring an ACM motion, I think my main concern would be the unintended consequences. Eg:
We get too many promotions too early in the season, substantially weakening the lower divisions and potentially resulting in mid-season promotions of paddlers who were not ready. We could then end up seeing more demotions at the end of the season to keep the numbers in the higher divisions anything like reasonable. If the weaker mid-season promotees are short-season protected then a lot of those demotions will be of stronger paddlers (including, potentially those promoted early in the season). This could then have a knock on effect to the following year.
I disagree with some of this Dee. If we get too many promotions at the beginning of the season then that makes space for others to get promoted and gives the next group a chance. Remember we are going to miss a years age group of promotions. This for a J14, J16 or J18 could have been there last chance to qualify for selection or stay on squads. If we are concerned about demoting better paddlers or having higher numbers in some divisions, then we could look at taking away short seasons, for say the first half.
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Re: Abandoning the season?....
[/quote]That bit out of the way, if you did bring an ACM motion, I think my main concern would be the unintended consequences. Eg:
We get too many promotions too early in the season, substantially weakening the lower divisions and potentially resulting in mid-season promotions of paddlers who were not ready. We could then end up seeing more demotions at the end of the season to keep the numbers in the higher divisions anything like reasonable. If the weaker mid-season promotees are short-season protected then a lot of those demotions will be of stronger paddlers (including, potentially those promoted early in the season). This could then have a knock on effect to the following year.
Sorry Dee I also disagree with this.
If you look at the results for Lee Valley and Llandysul Div 1. It is clear there is No home advantage. Instead it looks just the opposite. I have a spreadsheet but can't work out how to put it on hear.
We get too many promotions too early in the season, substantially weakening the lower divisions and potentially resulting in mid-season promotions of paddlers who were not ready. We could then end up seeing more demotions at the end of the season to keep the numbers in the higher divisions anything like reasonable. If the weaker mid-season promotees are short-season protected then a lot of those demotions will be of stronger paddlers (including, potentially those promoted early in the season). This could then have a knock on effect to the following year.
Sorry Dee I also disagree with this.
If you look at the results for Lee Valley and Llandysul Div 1. It is clear there is No home advantage. Instead it looks just the opposite. I have a spreadsheet but can't work out how to put it on hear.
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Re: Abandoning the season?....
Bib Name Age Club Lee Valley Olympic 22/02/2020 Lee Valley Olympic 23/02/2020 Llandysul 07/03/2020 Llandysul 08/03/2020 Total Number of potential promotion scores achieved
Division 1 K1M 6 Robert Guest J16 Manchester CC 983 1000 984 1000 3967 4
Division 1 K1M 21 Tim Barry J16 Manchester CC 1000 917 1000 952 3869 4
Division 1 C1M 3 Harry Downes J16 Independent 950 947 941 933 3771 4
Division 1 C1M 2 Gabriel Keen J18 Holme Pierrepont CC 1000 1000 1000 - 3000 3
Division 1 K1M 15 Elliot Davis U23 Cheltenham CC 915 - 906 937 2758 3
Division 1 C1W 2 Zoe Blythe-Shields J14 Independent - - 1000 1000 2000 2
Division 1 K1W 6 Mazel Brown J16 Proteus CC - - 1000 1000 2000 2
Division 1 K1W 13 Arina Kontchakov J14 Meridian CC 1000 - 967 - 1967 2
Division 1 K1M 12 Rhodri Slaven J18 North Wales Slalom - - 969 984 1953 2
Division 1 K1M 9 Eddie Mackintosh J16 Manchester CC - 983 953 - 1936 2
Division 1 K1W 19 Brogan Swart J16 Wyedean CC - 944 933 - 1877 2
Division 1 K1W 20 Sennah Nader-Humphries J14 Wyedean CC 944 - - 931 1875 2
Division 1 K1M 14 Klass Francisks Rozentals J16 Stafford & Stone CC - 933 - 905 1838 2
Division 1 K1M 11 Daniel Lafford U23 Wyedean CC 932 900 - - 1832 2
Division 1 C1M 4 Philip Smith J16 Winchester & District CC - - - 1000 1000 1
Division 1 K1W 2 Aisling Conlan S Green Star CC - 1000 - - 1000 1
Division 1 K1M 8 Ben Brown J16 Holme Pierrepont CC - - - 968 968 1
Division 1 K1M 26 Harry Downes J16 Independent - 967 - - 967 1
Division 1 K1M 51 Woody South J14 Lee Valley PC 966 - - - 966 1
Division 1 K1W 7 Irina Medunyak S Independent - - - 966 966 1
Division 1 K1M 22 Finn Johnson J16 Frome CC - 950 - - 950 1
Division 1 K1M 32 Luca Cano-Mole J16 Shepperton SCC 949 - - - 949 1
Division 1 K1M 17 Christopher Royle J16 Stafford & Stone CC - - 938 - 938 1
Division 1 K1M 7 David Bradley Mason J18 Wyedean CC - - 922 - 922 1
Division 1 K1M 13 Jacob Burton U23 Wyedean CC - - - 921 921 1
Division 1 C1M 21 Jacob Lines J16 Frome CC 900 - - - 900 1
Division 1 C1W 3 Charlotte Lucas J16 Independent - - - 900 900 1
Division 1 K1W 12 Hannah Clements U23 Llandysul Paddlers - - 900 - 900 1
If you look at the above results of Div 1 paddlers gaining promotion points at the First 4 Races of 2020.
Just remember they have trained all winter, payed the full entry fees and traveled to the races.
Its also clear there is No home advantage in these results as the races were at Lee Valley and Llandysul.
Take out Gabriel Keen as he is promoted.
So there are some 5 paddlers that would have almost certainly got promoted in the season and probably at the next race. 4 at J16 and One at J14. So they will probably get promoted next year but they won't have the chance of qualifying for selection, unless the rules on that are changed. So my first proposal would be to promote these paddlers. The chances are there will be 5 Prem paddlers give up so numbers will not change.
Then there are some 22 other paddlers that have gained 900 points or more from at least one race, if these got cared forward, Next years racing could see slightly more promotions at the beginning of the season and some sort of normality returning to the divisional system.
One other proposal, Anyone over 60 in div 1 automatically gets promoted to Prem.
Division 1 K1M 6 Robert Guest J16 Manchester CC 983 1000 984 1000 3967 4
Division 1 K1M 21 Tim Barry J16 Manchester CC 1000 917 1000 952 3869 4
Division 1 C1M 3 Harry Downes J16 Independent 950 947 941 933 3771 4
Division 1 C1M 2 Gabriel Keen J18 Holme Pierrepont CC 1000 1000 1000 - 3000 3
Division 1 K1M 15 Elliot Davis U23 Cheltenham CC 915 - 906 937 2758 3
Division 1 C1W 2 Zoe Blythe-Shields J14 Independent - - 1000 1000 2000 2
Division 1 K1W 6 Mazel Brown J16 Proteus CC - - 1000 1000 2000 2
Division 1 K1W 13 Arina Kontchakov J14 Meridian CC 1000 - 967 - 1967 2
Division 1 K1M 12 Rhodri Slaven J18 North Wales Slalom - - 969 984 1953 2
Division 1 K1M 9 Eddie Mackintosh J16 Manchester CC - 983 953 - 1936 2
Division 1 K1W 19 Brogan Swart J16 Wyedean CC - 944 933 - 1877 2
Division 1 K1W 20 Sennah Nader-Humphries J14 Wyedean CC 944 - - 931 1875 2
Division 1 K1M 14 Klass Francisks Rozentals J16 Stafford & Stone CC - 933 - 905 1838 2
Division 1 K1M 11 Daniel Lafford U23 Wyedean CC 932 900 - - 1832 2
Division 1 C1M 4 Philip Smith J16 Winchester & District CC - - - 1000 1000 1
Division 1 K1W 2 Aisling Conlan S Green Star CC - 1000 - - 1000 1
Division 1 K1M 8 Ben Brown J16 Holme Pierrepont CC - - - 968 968 1
Division 1 K1M 26 Harry Downes J16 Independent - 967 - - 967 1
Division 1 K1M 51 Woody South J14 Lee Valley PC 966 - - - 966 1
Division 1 K1W 7 Irina Medunyak S Independent - - - 966 966 1
Division 1 K1M 22 Finn Johnson J16 Frome CC - 950 - - 950 1
Division 1 K1M 32 Luca Cano-Mole J16 Shepperton SCC 949 - - - 949 1
Division 1 K1M 17 Christopher Royle J16 Stafford & Stone CC - - 938 - 938 1
Division 1 K1M 7 David Bradley Mason J18 Wyedean CC - - 922 - 922 1
Division 1 K1M 13 Jacob Burton U23 Wyedean CC - - - 921 921 1
Division 1 C1M 21 Jacob Lines J16 Frome CC 900 - - - 900 1
Division 1 C1W 3 Charlotte Lucas J16 Independent - - - 900 900 1
Division 1 K1W 12 Hannah Clements U23 Llandysul Paddlers - - 900 - 900 1
If you look at the above results of Div 1 paddlers gaining promotion points at the First 4 Races of 2020.
Just remember they have trained all winter, payed the full entry fees and traveled to the races.
Its also clear there is No home advantage in these results as the races were at Lee Valley and Llandysul.
Take out Gabriel Keen as he is promoted.
So there are some 5 paddlers that would have almost certainly got promoted in the season and probably at the next race. 4 at J16 and One at J14. So they will probably get promoted next year but they won't have the chance of qualifying for selection, unless the rules on that are changed. So my first proposal would be to promote these paddlers. The chances are there will be 5 Prem paddlers give up so numbers will not change.
Then there are some 22 other paddlers that have gained 900 points or more from at least one race, if these got cared forward, Next years racing could see slightly more promotions at the beginning of the season and some sort of normality returning to the divisional system.
One other proposal, Anyone over 60 in div 1 automatically gets promoted to Prem.
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Re: Abandoning the season?....
Once again, I have to agree with Jim W. The 2020 season is lost and we need to forget about it and move on.
Unfortunately a lot of the discussion on this thread has focussed on the fact that a few paddlers who managed to race at the start of this season may have lost out on promotion, largely from Div 1 to Prem. This again is focussing towards the top end of the sport. This is unlikely to be where the main issue of participation will be in 2021. It's going to be at entry level (div 4) and among the more journeyman paddlers in Divs 3 & 2.
We will need strategies in place to try and mitigate any excessive drop-out from Divs 2 & 3, and ideas on how we increase numbers at entry level, which as I stated earlier have been falling since 2011 - I know as I compile the unofficial Div 4 rankings and have done so for the past 10 years.
I think there is also an assumption in many minds that somehow the 2021 season will be a return to pre-Covid-19 normal. This is highly unlikely. Until an effective vaccine for the virus is generally available, which could be many years away, we are going to have to continue to live with the impact it will have on 'normal' life.
I'm sure the slalom committee will be interested in any ideas the wider slalom community can come up with.
James
Unfortunately a lot of the discussion on this thread has focussed on the fact that a few paddlers who managed to race at the start of this season may have lost out on promotion, largely from Div 1 to Prem. This again is focussing towards the top end of the sport. This is unlikely to be where the main issue of participation will be in 2021. It's going to be at entry level (div 4) and among the more journeyman paddlers in Divs 3 & 2.
We will need strategies in place to try and mitigate any excessive drop-out from Divs 2 & 3, and ideas on how we increase numbers at entry level, which as I stated earlier have been falling since 2011 - I know as I compile the unofficial Div 4 rankings and have done so for the past 10 years.
I think there is also an assumption in many minds that somehow the 2021 season will be a return to pre-Covid-19 normal. This is highly unlikely. Until an effective vaccine for the virus is generally available, which could be many years away, we are going to have to continue to live with the impact it will have on 'normal' life.
I'm sure the slalom committee will be interested in any ideas the wider slalom community can come up with.
James
Re: Abandoning the season?....
I think it is quite clear that as things stand everyone is going to be a year behind where they might have been, the squad system is going to have to be reconsidered to account for that. I think you should focus on lobbying whoever comes up with the squad policies, and the IP for selection, to get them changed rather than trying to mess about with the points from this year. Linking squad places directly to age is a broken system anyway, why not use the chance to fix it?
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Re: Abandoning the season?....
I fully agree with you James and Jim.
There is going to be a lot to consider if we want to get this wonderful Sport up and running again.
A big challenge to get numbers back to old times.
Perhaps I should have started a separate post { Div1 Points} but its on this one now.
Just an attempt to give recognition to those that started the 2020 season well and also an attempt to kick start the 2021 season if we get there. How would you feel if you came First at 2 out of 4 Div 1 races to find the slate wiped clean.We are only talking about up to 5 paddlers and they are not from my Club or Region.
There is going to be a lot to consider if we want to get this wonderful Sport up and running again.
A big challenge to get numbers back to old times.
Perhaps I should have started a separate post { Div1 Points} but its on this one now.
Just an attempt to give recognition to those that started the 2020 season well and also an attempt to kick start the 2021 season if we get there. How would you feel if you came First at 2 out of 4 Div 1 races to find the slate wiped clean.We are only talking about up to 5 paddlers and they are not from my Club or Region.
Re: Abandoning the season?....
No need to be sorry, I don’t entirely agree with myself
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
I think most people in the paddling community want to ensure that we retain as many paddlers as possible and do our best for the sport. The difficulty is working out and agreeing what is the best/fairest/reasonable approach and to do that we need to look at both sides of the argument before making a decision.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Re: Abandoning the season?....
I don’t think the season should be abandoned; at the end of the year those paddlers who have done four events results should be divided by four, you then get an average for the four events; then add this onto the result and if enough points for promotion is gained for promotion they should be promoted.
Bibs should be changed to reflect the results of those that paddled in 2020 as all monies were paid; I see no harm in this; and I think this approach is more positive !!!
Bibs should be changed to reflect the results of those that paddled in 2020 as all monies were paid; I see no harm in this; and I think this approach is more positive !!!
Re: Abandoning the season?....
What about those that did two events and won both? Where in the rules is this allowed?
There are several ways of extrapolating results from those that we have, the trouble is different methods will result in different paddlers benefitting or not, as the case may be. Also whatever we do has to work across all divisions and take into account paddle up points.
Contrary to how it might look in my posts here, I want to see paddlers keep points and benefit from performance. It is just that we need to be aware of the pitfalls of each option and tread carefully!
There are several ways of extrapolating results from those that we have, the trouble is different methods will result in different paddlers benefitting or not, as the case may be. Also whatever we do has to work across all divisions and take into account paddle up points.
Contrary to how it might look in my posts here, I want to see paddlers keep points and benefit from performance. It is just that we need to be aware of the pitfalls of each option and tread carefully!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
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Re: Abandoning the season?....
In terms of focussing on entry level competition, it may be helpful if I provide some high level figures.
In 2010, the total number of people who competed in a division 4 slalom in K1M, K1W, and C1M (there are no figures for C1W before 2013) over the season, was 773. This had fallen to 482 by 2019, a 38% decline, with a fall of 42% in K1M, 27% in KW1, and 38% in C1W.
These are pretty substantial drops in entry level participation in a decade, and if this trend continues it will not be that long before div 3 is entry level.
James
In 2010, the total number of people who competed in a division 4 slalom in K1M, K1W, and C1M (there are no figures for C1W before 2013) over the season, was 773. This had fallen to 482 by 2019, a 38% decline, with a fall of 42% in K1M, 27% in KW1, and 38% in C1W.
These are pretty substantial drops in entry level participation in a decade, and if this trend continues it will not be that long before div 3 is entry level.
James
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Re: Abandoning the season?....
Feels like the problem stems from abandoning the season but letting those (1) that got promoted keep it - so perhaps the problem is 'perception' of some gains; but the season was abandoned & ranking stays the same as it is now into 2021 - that paddler was promoted & therefore ranked in higher division at the point of postponement so no need to worry about that. But feels like because of that people are looking to carry forward points, as some sort of similarity as the promotion advantage, but its not.
I'm looking forward to 2021 - clean start![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
I'm looking forward to 2021 - clean start
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)