CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
PeterC
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:14 am
Location: Fife Scotland

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by PeterC » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:16 pm

Indeed classical protests are difficult if results are not seen however posting may be difficult in any form at sites like Washburn where there is no local signal. Do we set up a wireless network? Multiple peeps huddling round a single phone with connection...

We are likely to need to consider limiting time at the event so may not have seen what everyone else is doing.

Its complicated.

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by JimW » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:12 am

PeterC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:16 pm
Indeed classical protests are difficult if results are not seen however posting may be difficult in any form at sites like Washburn where there is no local signal. Do we set up a wireless network?
Yes. I have done this at Farinilee and Pinkston and for some of the time you were even running start and finish at those events :D

It is not entirely without difficulty, not all organisers will be comfortable setting up a wireless network never mind configuring simply slalom (or other system) to publish the results on local web server on the private wireless network, although this can be streamlined a bit if those of us that know how can find time to do it.

The biggest problem I had was that a lot of kids can't get their heads around a private wireless network that doesn't provide internet access - they weren't very interested in checking results, and I had endless enquiries as to why the internet wasn't working on the wifi...

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by JimW » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:15 pm

I have just published Pinkston div 2/3 (it's not open yet, don't rush) and have come up with a couple of considerations.

- The first I think can probably only ever apply to this race so probably not worth trying to accommodate - if we run under the sort of restrictions I am anticipating we will have to run with very small groups of paddlers at a time, and because we change the pumps and gate heights between division 2 and 3 I need to have different limits per division per day to fit the group sizes. I can achieve this by checking the event full box and forcing all entries to the waiting list so I can just accept the right number for each division.

- One of the ideas that PeterC has been circulating is to split races so that paddlers do not require overnight accommodation. So if I have 4 groups of paddlers, instead of having all 4 paddle each day, have groups 1 & 2 on Saturday morning doing race 1, then have groups 1 & 2 again on Saturday afternoon to do race 2, and on Sunday have groups 3 & 4 do say race 2 in the morning and race 1 in the afternoon (leaving course 2 up overnight means we can be certain at least one of the races uses exactly the same course for all competitors). This doesn't fit with the setup parameters available, and I'm sure would be a major headache to implement - what do other organisers think, is this likely to be something a lot of us are going to want to (or have to) do this year? At the moment I'm still thinking of running the race conventionally and expecting that our entries are going to be local enough to go home overnight, although it would be lovely to get some paddlers from further afield along too. It is more of an issue for div 1 and prem that are more nationally attended.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by Dee » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:30 pm

Hi Jim,

Although I did not originally write canoeslalomentries with a pandemic in mind, I think that there are some (non-perfect) work-arounds which would be worth considering.

Division Limits
Whilst you cannot limit by division - it is possible to limit by race. So two options:
  • Limit Div 2 K1M to 10 paddlers, etc. If you did this for all the events (keeping some places in hand) then it would at least mean that some entries would be directly added rather that you having to manage each individually.
  • Possibly easier (less distribution guess work) would be to set the reserved entry to 15 to allow for the div 3s and then mark the individual div 3 races as full. This would allow div 2s to enter as normal up to a limit of 45 paddlers (60-15) but still push the div 3s to the waiting list, so that you would only need to manually accept the div 3s but not the div 2s. (Note: when you accept the div 3s, you would need to manually reduce the reserved entry by the corresponding amount)
Sessions/Groups
Regarding sessions/groups - there is a way of handling these for entries! When setting up you can state number of sessions by division. Paddlers can then select a specific session to enter as their preference, but as organiser you can move them between the two. The sessions are shown as separate races on the start list which means more flexibility there too, but does make setting the start list up a bit complex. (They will still all go to the same list in Simply Slalom).

Other notes
  • Looking at what you have done/said - I think you are not intending to have an officials race - so would be better to delete rather than leave in place.
  • Similarly spectators - the purpose of this is to allow collection of data for non-paddlers on site - may be hard to avoid these completely as they come in to drop paddlers and boats off?
  • Might be worth a chat about the competition set up - zoom?
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by JimW » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:06 pm

Hi Dee,

You will be telling me next that you didn't write Canoeslalom entries with a 'massive geomagnetic storm that will take down all electronics' in mind? :D

Division Limits
I think the way I have it set up is probably going to be easiest to explain to people when the raft of queries start. Option 1 means I have to make some guesses (which I can educate by reference to past entries) and keep an eye on things, option 2 is going to look preferential to div 2 entries (although it won't actually be) and I could do without people thinking that even if they are wrong!

Sessions/Groups
Did I need to enable that in the initial setup? The session numbers don't appear to be editable, or do I need to generate start list parameters before I get sessions? I normally leave the start list setup until I have got around to scheduling the day.

Other notes
Officials - not sure at this stage if an officials race would be feasible, but didn't want to discount it outright. I'll maybe turn it off for now and back on when we have more details worked out. Come to think of it, with numbers so limited once non-paddling officials are accounted for there probably won't be many spaces left for paddling officials
Spectators - This is a major headache with the Scottish field of play rules. The only way we can have a competition at all in levels 0-2 is if only allow 30 people onto the site at any one time. If the race is full, this means only paddlers and officials. If the race is less than full we could use the unallocated entries to allow some non-paddlers onto the site, but we won't be able to have one per entry, because we need it more than 50% full to cover costs and there is unlikely to be any fair way to do this, so the default position is no spectators, no parents (unless they entered as competitors) and no coaches. It is a welfare headache as much as anything. I set these to 0, do you think it is better to remove them completely?

Zoom meeting - yes, great idea!
Are you receiving my emails or are they going to junk again? I relaise it is Sunday evening so you may be offline and not have seen my reply, but I do have history with your junk folder!
Also I am trying to remember if I sent you an email recently about needing to change our bank account details? If not I will get the treasurer to contact you directly.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by Dee » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:16 pm

Aaargh! they are going to junk again
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by Dee » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:24 pm

PS I am able to update sessions, but may have disabled them for organisers as it does require a bit of fiddling and best discussed before actioning.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by JimW » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:40 pm

That makes sense, hopefully we can catch up in zoom tomorrow and see if there is a better way to set things up.
Thanks
Jim

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by djberriman » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:49 am

I believe this years version of SS does allow for individual gate penalties to be input.

I doubt I'll get my kit ready in time for many events but if I could it would remove the need for cards for touches in control as judges would key them in on a wireless key pad (which doesn't require wifi and should work anywhere). I have it working. The touches just print out on a slip in control when they have all arrived. It would just require one person to put the touches (or total penalties) into SS.

Potentially the time could be gathered the same way but that's a little more of a long term thought.

I also need to finish my start clock to save all that shouting! It really just needs a case.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by Dee » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:22 pm

According to https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _2021.pdf

on 27th March ...
Formally organised outdoor sports – for adults and under 18s -
can also restart and will not be subject to the gatherings limits, but should be
compliant with guidance issued by national governing bodies.
As far as I can make out "organised sport" is defined at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus ... ort-events
‘Organised sport’ refers to sport which is formally organised by a national governing body, club, public body, qualified instructor, company or charity, and which follows the sport’s national governing body’s guidance.
So on this basis I think we should be able to run startlists fairly normally (subject to hand washing, masks, social distancing etc) without worrying about limits of paddlers on site. What to others think?

Note for clarity:
I have no inside knowledge so am going purely on internet findings!
I'm also looking at England!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by JimW » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:32 pm

What a minefield!
From the first link (in the section from 29th March, which starts at item 99):
102.The Government will also allow outdoor sports facilities to reopen, broadening the options for outdoor exercise and recreation. These facilities,such as tennis and basketball courts, and swimming pools, can be used by people in line with the wider social contact limits. Formally organised outdoor sports –for adultsand under 18s -can also restart and will not be subject to the gatherings limits,butshould be compliant with guidance issued by national governing bodies.
From the second link:
Organised sport participation events

Organised sport participation events such as races and organised walks can take place outdoors in tier 1, 2 and 3 areas, but must adhere to legal gathering limits and follow COVID-secure guidance. More information is set out below in the section on organised sport participation events.
I could be reading these out of context, but they appear contradictory!

Worse still, Scotland is on an entirely different path - I have been looking for a statement about organised sports for over 18s, so far all we have is a vague statement that outdoor non-contact sports for 12-17 year olds might restart on 15th March if all the criteria are being satisfied, nothing yet about when adult sports might resume in Scotland

Scotland Covid Framework Feb 2021 (diagram on P14 is appears to be the most useful bit)

At the moment for those of us in Scotland the guidance that would enable us to run an event are tied to our level 2, that document says the absolute earliest we might get back into the level system is 26th April, which is going to be too late for me to make a call about Pinkston div 2/3, however; I am going to stick with my plan to review on 27th March just in case organised outdoor sport for adults gets fast tracked before then.

The other thing is that it isn't just about the legal permission to run an event, but about who can come to it. When outdoor non-contact sports for 12-17 years resumes (on March 15 or a later date subject to conditions), it will be at least 3 weeks before the general "Stay at home" status is cancelled, and even after that with level 3 and 4 no one can enter or leave a level 3 or 4 area so unless that activity becomes an exempted reason, this would only allow us to run events (for U18) for people living in the same local authority area, not national events. I don't even live in the same local authority area as my venue, I haven't been there since September. I could end up being able to organise an event on paper that I am not physically allowed to turn up and organise on the day! Paddlers in England might be allowed to leave home to attend, but not allowed to enter Glasgow when they get here!

There is nothing like being the first event on the calendar for making you start to look at the rules/routemaps!
(I'll probably go quiet once my race is cancelled or has happened)

lesf
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 5:15 pm

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by lesf » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:23 am

Jim,
The second link and statement re grassroots sports guidance is from December so predates and is superceeded by the English lockdown and 'roadmap'. It was updated in Jan with a small blue box at the top that effectively said this doesn't apply during the lockdown. Would be much clearer if they just took down old guidance.

We are still awaiting full DCMS / Sport England and BC guidance for after 29 March. While we can presume it may look something like it did before who knows. Currently Sport England only has outline information that points back to the government 'roadmap'

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: CanoeSlalomEntries Support for Covid Slaloms

Post by JimW » Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:27 pm

Thanks Les,

I guess we are all awaiting further clarity on the details now!
I suspect it will come too late for me to be able to act on, but keeping my fingers crossed and my options open!

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