6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
lesf
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by lesf » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:46 pm

Regarding end of year promotions and speeding promotion next year. If you promote 2 or 3 out of Div 1 in the classes where lower numbers mean only a win gives sufficient points for promotion, you potentially have fewer paddlers competing next year and role the problem into another year. And where ever you draw the line for end of season promotion, someone will just miss out and feel hard done by.
At one time C1 events had a lower points total for promotion to reflect the lower number of competitors in those events, but that disappeared in the interests of fairness (I think).

djberriman
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by djberriman » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:49 pm

Steve as he says did discuss this with me, it shouldn't take too much, I'm sure I can make it obvious enough.

We'd have to be very clear when points expire to ensure it doesn't cause any issues at Doubles as results aren't typically loaded on a Saturday and the rankings wouldn't be updated leading to possible confusion.

We probably have to ensure they are updated each evening so results are dropped at the right time, that said it would have to be after ALL the results for a weekend are loaded (for instance results expire on Monday, but the weekend results aren't loaded until Wednesday so people who were promoted would show as not). If this goes ahead this needs taking into account and I need very clear guidance as to when to expire points to ensure fairness, accuracy and clarity.

Vets - currently thinking only myself and those ranked below me will retain their points
C2 - bribes accepted (used notes, brown envelope - you know the drill)

I've often mused all races should be calculated out of 42 if less than 42 (approx, I'd have to check the figure) so the top 3 always get promotion points.

This harks back to my days in Div 2, every race had 60-70 K1M except the 1/2 at Tully which when we got there only had 13, we discussed it in the warm up area as I remember, it meant only the person who came first got anything worthwhile points wise, can't remember who it was but as long as they had a good run we new who would get those vital promotion points, there was about 5-7 of there for the same reason, just needing at top 3 results at any other event. It felt unfair we'd made the effort to get there and could achieve very little, in reality we were being penalised.

Using such a calculation would reward those who race, a few may get more than normal, but hey so what, they just get a better bib the next year and perhaps deservedly so, it also removes all need for quorate rules.

JimW
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by JimW » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:13 pm

djberriman wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:49 pm
Vets - currently thinking only myself and those ranked below me will retain their points
But old points or new points - by some fluke I have one result which by new points will exceed more than my expected best 5 total next year if the points motion goes ahead...
djberriman wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:49 pm
I've often mused all races should be calculated out of 42 if less than 42 (approx, I'd have to check the figure) so the top 3 always get promotion points.
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Mike Mitchell
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by Mike Mitchell » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:47 pm

harratts wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:08 pm
And any C2 points obtained at Div.2 races during 2021 would also need to be retained.

Mike and Clive will therefore be for the motion as they will not get so many points as Bib No. 1 C2 crew next year.

George and I are planning on seeing to that!
Steve
I hadn't considered this Steve, I have now changed my Clubs vote to support it.
Nothing like a head start. :D

Mike Mitchell
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by Mike Mitchell » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:48 pm

lesf wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:45 pm

At one time C1 events had a lower points total for promotion to reflect the lower number of competitors in those events, but that disappeared in the interests of fairness (I think).
That could be a consideration.

rose
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by rose » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:00 pm

Paddlers that have qualified for U23 and senior selection - quite a lot of div 1 C1’s and 1 div 1 man; surely these paddlers are prem standard!!!!

djberriman
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by djberriman » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:41 pm

Having thought some more, I'd propose if this goes ahead that points count for a year as proposed but are only 'cancelled' on Mondays.

That allows clarity at doubles and also means paddler should know ahead of a weekend where they stand.

So for instance if the points were gained on the 3rd July 2021 (Sunday) they would be included in the paddlers results until Monday 4th July 2022 ​(The Monday after the anniversary of the event).

I'd therefore calculate the Monday after the weekend and include points up to but not including that date (it wouldn't matter when the results were loaded).

Prems/Div 1's will be fine, lower divisions may look odd until all results are loaded for the weekend as paddlers will effectively lose them if the event they attended hasn't been loaded and others are causing a re-rank, only for them to reappear when the results of their event are loaded if they are promoted on the basis of those results.

I'll also have to run the ranking every Monday even if there are no events to ensure results are removed each week so paddlers will suddenly see points dropped and their ranking change.

It's certainly going to cause confusion one way or another.

Steve Holmes
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by Steve Holmes » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:17 am

Duncan, I think you’ve missed the point. The idea is not for all points to carry over for 12 months, just to allow 1 full season of racing to count. So for div 3, ALL their 2021 points will vanish on, or near, 22nd May. I would suggest Monday May 16th.
For div 2, ALL 2021 points disappear on, or near, 10th July. And so on…
This should be easier as there will only be 4 “reset points”, one for each division.

chriswilde
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by chriswilde » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:11 pm

I have kept quiet so far, however I really do not see the justification to carry points forward.

The committee have already committed to some end of season promotions and as long as this happens and in a fairly bold way then we should look forward to a more normal season of slalom racing in 2022 hopefully. I would expect that the committee will need to draw the line at slightly different points totals depending on the class and division but I think as a rule of thumb one win, or two second places should be sufficient for promotion in most cases. The biggest bottle neck seems to be div 1 C1 Mens and I am not sure that all classes in all divisions need to have end of season promotions.

My main area of concern for 2022 is that paddler numbers look to be poor and we need to do all we can to encourage greater participation, the key to which is better lower division competitions. A few suggestions for starters on this topic.
We need a much better standard of judging to make competition fair - could we have an online judge education module and assessment like much of the work which has been coming out of BC over the last couple of years?
Multi division events; I was not a fan of these, but since I have been actively trying to encourage slalom at our club these are a great way to take a big gang to a race and all have a go... however I strongly believe that a div 2, 3 and 4 race should never be run on the same course so a short course or flat water div 4 is what is needed...(as per llandyssul)..
Other activities on the same weekend - we held river race, Taunton held a polo game alongside their slaloms, again as above this is good to take the club and everyone have a go, could also include a river trip, extreme slalom or just a good old team event and BBQ....

Organising clubs need to be welcoming, upbeat and accommodating to visiting paddlers needs.

I really appreciate everything that volunteers do for our sport so nothing I have said above should be taken as a criticism of anyone or anything....Sorry for going off topic!

Steve Holmes
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by Steve Holmes » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:46 pm

I completely agree re recruitment and retention Chris, I’ve volunteered for the sub group on this, hopefully some good ideas will come out of it, and we can get some good shared practice going on!

The committee haven’t committed to any end of season promotions as yet. To be honest, when I proposed the idea I was thinking of the div 2 K1 men that were all taking points off each other and it looked like a few of them weren’t going to get over the line. At Lee Valley all 4 who could have gotten up did so, as did the only div 2 K1 woman, so with the benefit of hindsight I may not have proposed the idea! Mike points out that there is still the issue in div 1, with fewer events running and still a number of paddlers at the top who are probably prem standard.

If this is going to cause lots of hassle at the ACM I’m quite happy to withdraw it. Pretty much everyone I spoke too seemed in favour of the idea. Now it seems this is not the case…

Dee
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by Dee » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:49 pm

chriswilde wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:11 pm

The committee have already committed to some end of season promotions
They haven’t! They have, I believe, committed to considering them, but this isn't the same thing. That is not to say they won’t happen just that nothing has been decided either way
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Canadian Paddler
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by Canadian Paddler » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:13 am

POSTING PERSONAL VIEWS, Nothing to do with any committee positions

For as long as I can remember the first Slalom Committee meeting after the ACM has had Promotion/demotion levels as one of the first items (e.g. item 2 in 2019 http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/committee/ ... inutes.pdf. That is the publicly available minutes, archives will show this going back decades. The only exceptions were last year - no promotions / demotions 'mid season', and the period where end of season promotions were not allowed (if you remember that far back).

So the agenda for the meeting on 1st December has an item for promotion/demotion as an early item. OK Demotion will take very little time - there will be none, but promotion will be reviewed and levels agreed as normal.

As Dee says, there has been no commitments either way as yet, Mike has expressed his opinion, but the committee decision will be taken at the meeting and will include factors such as ranking officer recommendations, and ACM decisions, as always.
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rose
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by rose » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:28 pm

So looking at the C1M div 1 class points is not the answer; you need to look at their results compared to the ladies C1 and K1. So they are prem standard in a small class and just struggling to get promoted under the current criteria!!!

Canadian Paddler
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Re: 6.6 Carry Points Forward for 2022

Post by Canadian Paddler » Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:57 pm

Another useful debate, with some points raised to be considered for motions to the next ACM.

But the motion was rejected 8 to 44
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