Unofficial UK Slalom BBS

Proposed by Manchester Canoe Club Seconded by Llandysul Canoe Club (MS)

Due to the lack of racing over 2020/21 and the fact that some paddlers had to missed races due to isolation, all points accrued in 2021 will be kept into the 2022 season until the following dates (1 year after racing restarted in that division): Division 3 - 22nd May; Division 2 - 10th July; Division 1 - 21st August.
There could also be an argument due to race cancellations (particularly in div 2) and isolation once racing restarted that the points are kept on longer than these dates.

My club is planning on voting against this motion for the following reasons:
- There have been sufficient races within each division to allow for promotion, as proven by the number of promotions that have taken place.
- Over the past two years, the sport has suffered with a lack of new paddlers at the lower levels. Carrying points forward will only result in emptying out the divisions through promotion, making them top heavy.
- The Covid future is uncertain, lockdowns and disruption to racing and training may still happen. Will this motion then be put forward again next year, resulting in three years of carried over points?
- It is time to move forward from the last two years with the prediction of a normal season in 2022, our paddlers have been messed around enough. We need to move forward with a clean slate so everyone knows where they stand.

The intention is not to lead to 3 years of carried over points. Under the proposal, all points from 2020 would not be carried over, and those from 2021 would last a maximum of 12 months, disappearing part way through the season. The intention is just to get promotions moving a little faster at the start of the season.
Looking at promotions from div 2 to div 1 in the years 2018-19 compared with 2020-21:

K1M 57 vs 11
K1W 36 vs 8
C1M 21 vs 5
C1W 13 vs 5

Numbers at div 4,3 and 2 events have been looking quite healthy this year, higher than comparable events from previous seasons. Div 1 and Prem events have suffered from greatly reduced numbers and been kept afloat by paddle ups.

END OF YEAR PROMOTION.

The Slalom committee has the power to promote at the end of season.
This is usually at the 1st meeting after the ACM
I have already asked for this to be considered before the motion of carrying point forward was proposed.

So if you look at promotions this year they are down.
This is because numbers of boats racing are also down.
1st look at Div 1 Ladies. Bib 1 has had 4- 2nd places and a PU of 962 points but not promoted. This is because if there are only about 20 boats racing then 2nd place points are not enough.
In C1 Div 1 men it even worse. The standard at the top has been high for the last 4 years at least. Everyone keeps sharing wins, but 2nd place again is still not enough points.
Then K1 Men div 1 and the top men have been getting good paddle up positions but not enough points for promotion.

If you look at Senior and Junior selection qualification for next year. There are a lot of Div 1 paddlers that have qualified.
So do they have to race Div 1 again next year but compete against the best at selection.

Also numbers have dropped the most in Div 1 and Prem, Prem is relying on Div 1 paddlers to make its numbers up and make the event viable. Everyone is hoping that paddlers will come back next year, but I don’t believe it's going to happen.
Then Div 2 and 3 numbers are not so badly affected.
So I believe we should look at promotions in all the divisions.
If my White bearded friend was still with us then we could have all the numbers listed out for us.

So a quick proposal would be to promote everyone with the following points.
Existing. New for 2022 only. Number of Boats
Div 1 4750 4300 K1 L -2. K1 M - 6. C1 L - 0. C1M - 3.

Div2 2350 2100 K1 L - 2. K1 M - 6. C1 L - 0. C1 M - 2

Div3. 1100 1000 K1 L - 4. K1 M - 2. C1 L - 0. C1 M - 2

There is 1 - C1 M below these point that got 1120 points in the British Open PU and has qualified for selection.
This could be considered separately or we could even lower the number. There could be an option for anyone that feels they are not ready for promotion.

I am not keen on the idea of carrying points forward, as I believe we need to leave the last 2 years behind and start new.
Except if you want to carry VET points forward, nothing like a head start.

Carrying points forward to next season is also quite frankly unfair to all those who, for various reasons, were unable to race in 2020 and 2021. The raison d'être for carrying 2020 points forward into 2021 was that there were so few races in the former season that both years were combined into one season.

As Mike says, the slalom committee has the power to enact end of season promotions if it feels that this is appropriate.

2022 will be a new season and as such all paddlers should start with a level playing field.

James

I absolutely see Mike’s points. I assumed as end of season promotions hadn’t been announced then they weren’t happening is I thought they would be done before the squads were announced. For a parental point of view Chloe stands to benefit under the carry over proposal or under Mike’s proposal. Personally I would rather she stays in div 2 as it would be nice for her to get a win before she gets promoted, and I’d rather she spent the winter preparing for Symonds Yat and Matlock div 2s rather than Lee Valley div 1! Disclaimer - this wasn’t proposed with Chloe in mind, when I started discussing the idea she hadn’t gotten any points good enough for promotion. I was thinking of all the div 2 K1M who were training really hard and paddling really well but turning up at races and taking points off each other. If we had had 2 full seasons racing they would all be in div 1 easily by now, and less stressed about maintaining places on schemes.

I don’t see, however, how it disadvantages anybody who didn’t race in 2021. The points won’t count at the end of the season rankings as they only roll over until 12 months after racing started in that division in 2020. So, for example, after July all div 2 points in 2021 would disappear and only points accrued in 2022 would count from that point on. That number of points that other paddlers in the division have are irrelevant at actual races, so if a paddler that didn’t race at all in 2021 turned up and won, they would still get the same number of points and get promoted at the same race that they would have done otherwise.

Our thinking was that previously all paddlers have had a full season to accrue points. This hasn’t happened this year, so keeping their points on until the relevent date next year would give them a full season’s worth of points.

Hi All, In reply to my end of season promotion post I received this from a Paddler Parent
It gives a interesting view on where some paddlers would have finished in the division above, if they had got promoted.

Dear Mike

I was looking at your comment on the proposal to carry points forward for 2022. I thought it would be helpful to see how many points would have been achieved by paddlers in the their target divisions if they had been promoted this year.

Division 1
If the point target had been 4,300 as you suggest, then there would have been an additional 2 K1W, 6 K1M, and 3 C1M promoted during the 2020/21 season. Those 11 athletes all paddled up at Prem races and their best three Prem results (discounting the fourth) would have been as follows: for the 2 K1W: 1,393 and 867; for the 6 K1M: 2,286, 1,795, 1,316, 696, 1,639 and 1,187; and for the 3 C1M: 1,822, 1,326 and 1,520.

As the fields are smaller for the C1 classes, I thought I could do the same for all the athletes who achieved over 4,000 points. That gave an additional 1 C1W and 2 C1M. The C1W athlete did not paddle up at any Prem races, but the 2 C1M did, and would have achieved 2,126 and 1,550 paddle up points.

I thought those figures were quite interesting, and probably establish that they would all have been ready for Prem.

Division 2
If the point target had been 2,100, then there would have been an additional 3 K1W, 6 K1M and 2 C1M promoted. Not all of those paddlers paddled up at Div 1 races (possibly due to the Div 1 races being full). However, taking the best five Div 1 paddle up points, those athletes that did paddle up would have achieved the following points: for the 3 K1W: 167, 77 and 176; for the 4 K1M that paddled up: 1,709, 334, 271 and 794; and for the 2 C1M: 424 and 383.

It's not so easy to un-pick the position for the Div 3's due to the number of Div2/3 races.

I'm happy for you to share all, some or none of the information above as you prefer. No need to credit me - share as you want

Steve Holmes wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:26 pm

I assumed as end of season promotions hadn’t been announced then they weren’t happening

Promotions and Demotions are always discussed at the Committee meeting after the ACM. This year the decision to say that there would be no demotions was taken early and announced to remove risks associated with paddlers attending events when they shouldn't. In recent years there have been no end of season promotions, but the rule book allows for them and this year may be different. However, at the moment no decision either way has been taken regarding end of season promotions, let alone how they might be applied.

If this proposed motion gets through, will I be able to retain my Veteran's points obtained at Div. 2 events during this season for part of next season too?

It may affect how I lobby for the motion within my club.

No 2nd jobs allowed.

I honestly hadn’t considered vets points! I would imagine it would depend on what was easier for Duncan to code!

I suspect this may lead to unconsidered consequences and confusion all round!

Not really Dee
As the idea is for those who have picked up points that may count towards promotion at a couple of races to keep those points towards promotion early next season, it is irrelevant for vets and prem. I spoke to Duncan before this was proposed and he said it would be fairly simple to code in an end date for this year’s points.

Steve Holmes wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:54 pm

Not really Dee
As the idea is for those who have picked up points that may count towards promotion at a couple of races to keep those points towards promotion early next season, it is irrelevant for vets and prem. I spoke to Duncan before this was proposed and he said it would be fairly simple to code in an end date for this year’s points.

I wasn't think in terms of technical issues but, sadly, I think a lot of paddlers find the points/promotion process quite complex as it is. I still suspect that, if this is passed, then a number of people will be very confused when some of their previously carried forwards point are suddenly dropped. I do understand that the end date will be publicised but that won't stop people misremembering and being miffed. Whatever happens here there will be winners and losers and someone won't be happy!

And any C2 points obtained at Div.2 races during 2021 would also need to be retained.

Mike and Clive will therefore be for the motion as they will not get so many points as Bib No. 1 C2 crew next year.

George and I are planning on seeing to that!
Steve

Regarding end of year promotions and speeding promotion next year. If you promote 2 or 3 out of Div 1 in the classes where lower numbers mean only a win gives sufficient points for promotion, you potentially have fewer paddlers competing next year and role the problem into another year. And where ever you draw the line for end of season promotion, someone will just miss out and feel hard done by.
At one time C1 events had a lower points total for promotion to reflect the lower number of competitors in those events, but that disappeared in the interests of fairness (I think).