Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
WindsorCC
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by WindsorCC » Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:22 pm

Also, sorry Joel hadn't seen your post a couple above which is basically suggesting the same thing....

JimW
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by JimW » Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:15 pm

Rule 5.1 sets out what divisions we are allowed to combine at races, and rule 20.1 sets out the restrictions on applications and changes to races, and basically says the committee have no authority to sanction anything other that direct replacements or short notice div 4's because anything else requires to be sanctioned by an ACM (i.e. enforcing democracy, which is probably a good thing).

So there isn't really anything that can be done to change formats or add new race types short of having an early ACM (is an ECM an option?)

What we need to be thinking about is how we change those rules, or precede them with new ones, in such a way that the committee can be given limited temporary authority to relax them in years where entries are significantly, and measurably, down, so that we can alter existing races to include additional divisions, and/or where races are cancelled add new ones with a different scope to the one being replaced.

All of this is not trivial, the restrictions on distance and number of events per weekend etc. have all historically come about to avoid races competing for the same entries and leaving one or both undersubscribed as a result, and the more divisions we combine the more complicated all that becomes. but the first step has to be to work out a way that temporary relaxations can be consititutionally permitted in order to create the possibility for mid-season reactive shuffling in the future.

Just throwing some random numbers in, I haven't done any stats on it and I guess we will miss John for that (he would have been Joel and Paul's campaign) but I'm thinking it could be something along the lines of:
Rule 5.0 Extraordinary circumstances
Where it is found part way through a season that unforseen circumstances are affecting entries in 2 or more divisions:
  • If each affected division has had more than 3 weekends of racing (i.e. if only a single race was held, it counts, but where a double race was held it will only count for 1 weekend in this calculation)
  • And 50% or more of those weekends had an entry lower than 60% of their previous 3 year rolling average entry
The committee are temporarily authorised to suspend parts of rules 5.1 and 25.1 (and possibly parts of 5.2) for the remainder of that racing season in order to allow trialling of innovative solutions to increasing entries at remaining races without recuiring the sanction of an ACM, whilst still following the principles of 20.1.1 with respect to distancing of competitions and 20.1.5e subject to agreement of other race organisers whose races may be affected by an alteration or proposed new race.
The committee would be required to assess any application made under the suspension and use good judgement to decde whether to sanction it or not.
Any race specially sanctioned under such a suspension is not to be assumed accepted on a permanent basis and noting that the suspension will cease at the end of the racing year, if any such races seem like promising future options they should be proposed in a motion to the subsequent ACM for inclusion in the rules and sanction by that ACM.

Steve Holmes
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by Steve Holmes » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:18 am

Interesting ideas about the paddle down CeeBee, I would suggest a factor of 0.8 so there’s no way the points would count for promotion.
I like your proposal Jim

So my understanding is that we can’t have a div 1/2 (or P/1) on the same course. I like Mike’s idea of changing a couple of gates, but that has implications for practice. So would a situation similar to the junior system in Germany that Joel described work in the short term? Run a division 1 race with a div 2 alongside it (providing there are no competing div 2s that weekend) but the div. 2 paddlers don’t have to do a certain gate? It doesn’t even need to be a key gate. Or on the course setup there could be 2 gates on the same wire (eg 16 and 16A) to set up an easier stagger for the div 2s?
This would probably need a waiving of the 6 week notice rule and the div 1 organisers to come on board, but if it would get more entries and make events more financially viable then hopefully they would.

Steve Holmes
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by Steve Holmes » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:42 am

After speaking to the calmer, more rational member of our household, I am happy to propose (or second) Mike’s motion that paddle ups count as members of the host division for points calculations. This would seem to be a win win for all concerned. If we ever get back to a point of prem and div 1 getting too full and need to slow promotions down then it can be rethought.

djberriman
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by djberriman » Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:31 pm

Steve Holmes wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:42 am
After speaking to the calmer, more rational member of our household, I am happy to propose (or second) Mike’s motion that paddle ups count as members of the host division for points calculations. This would seem to be a win win for all concerned. If we ever get back to a point of prem and div 1 getting too full and need to slow promotions down then it can be rethought.
It depends on your perspective, if you are in the division (having been promoted) then you might be a bit aggrieved if paddle ups reduce your points. Most paddle ups would get less points than they do now as well.

I've never thought 'slowing down' promotions was a good idea, again I'm sure many would disagree, possibly even yourself at some point in the future, if you are good enough to race at a level surely you should be allowed to?

Steve Holmes
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by Steve Holmes » Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:45 pm

How would a paddle up get less points? In a scenario with 20 host div 1 paddlers and 10 paddle ups, let’s say the highest paddle up finishes between 11th and 12th, currently earning 500 points. If all the paddle ups were classed as the host division then they would have finished 12th out of 30, earning 633 points.
At Llandysul div 1 on the Saturday Chloe got 95 points as a paddle up, she would have gotten 413 points under this proposal. All of the div 1 women would have gotten more points than they did (apart from the winner!)

JimW
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by JimW » Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:09 pm

Some will get more points, some fewer. Adding more paddlers to the calculation changes the step size for the points difference between places so at the top end paddlers (host and PU) except 1st will make a gain, and the lower end they will lose. If you only concentrate on the promotion end it is easy to ignore lower end points as not mattering, but to paddlers possibly hovering on the demotion limit they might be important.

Rick
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by Rick » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:35 pm

A slightly different perspective:
do we know which demographic is leaving the sport?
I suspect its not the J10 to J16 children of former paddlers, nor the aging former paddlers themselves returning to vets, but the decline might result more from a greater drop-out of young people moving on to higher/further education or into fulltime work and giving up their dreams of making the next squad or selection, or adults who've tried the sport and found its not for them, nor their kids, due to the historical issues of too much hanging around between runs, not enough time on the water, cold weather at early season races, long drives in bad traffic to races, and costs of fuel and accommodation.

Slaloms must be enjoyable for all involved (incl volunteers in all roles). Fewer participants per div could be an opportunity to address these historic issues.  Some initial ideas: more full-runs practice time; starting later in the day to facilitate same-day travellers; provide coaching available to all; upload to whatsapp the video footage of every paddler's practice on a key move, for self-review; reintroduce teams races; race formats that encourage paddling all classes, incl C2; Multi div events that run each division's runs back-to-back, so eg div2 racers could have a family or homework afternoon after their morning race while the div3's are racing; then maybe reverse the order of divs on the second day of a double race.

I suspect its not the committed slalom racers chasing promotion who need to be encouraged to stay in the sport for lack of point-scoring opportunities, rather its those paddlers who do race yet have a whole load of other factors and pressures that make racing unbearable.

djberriman
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by djberriman » Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:34 am

Perhaps the sport has become TV and squad obsessed (C2 anyone?), shortened sprint races (reducing usable features at many natural courses) and boater cross, creating paddlers only motivated by achieving goals to stay on squad who are lost once most eventually fail, the top of the pyramid is very small. There is an increasing commentary on the river bank of the intensity of the sport above Div 2 which is a shock to many having experienced the fun and friendliness of the lower divisions.

We also don't accommodate paddlers who have reached their happy level, don't want to paddle at a higher level (perhaps short term or forever), who take a year out to get demoted (some/many never return) or throw races to prevent promotion . Look how popular Vets now is, good fun racing but no pressure of promotion or demotion or having to do 'x' races. This should be replicated in other divisions in some form perhaps as non ranked paddler, not everyone wants to race as an official.

As for points if you are below half way you get less points as the number of paddlers in the race grows. Points gap at Llandysul was 50 per place, with all the PU's in this changes to 29. A rough calculation would give Chloe 391 points, again only roughly only one may have received enough(478) to finish off their promotion based on 5 results. In this case every div 1 paddler would have got more points which can be viewed many ways depending on who you are and whether you were at the event or not (imagine you are the paddler who gets demoted at the end of the year instead of someone who stayed up due to attending events with lots of paddle ups despite the fact you beat them at every race you attended)

Paddle up gives paddlers the chance where available to test themselves in race conditions (get used to no practice in Prem) against paddlers in the next division without affecting that division, and more recently to actually earn points when doing so, where they are clearly in the wrong division they can rapidly move into the higher division (particularly helpful after winter training or in the case of a new entrant/returning paddler to the sport).

Not saying we shouldn't change things just ensure all the consequences are thought through for both ends of the division

Steve Holmes
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by Steve Holmes » Tue May 03, 2022 9:23 am

I think we’re looking at different days at Llandysul. On the Saturday Helena finished 19th out of 36 which would have been 500 points. More musings later following much discussion at the weekend but I really should teach my year 9s some maths!

Steve Holmes
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by Steve Holmes » Tue May 03, 2022 12:44 pm

So we have 3 issues being discussed over 2 threads here: recruitment, retention and volunteers. All boil down to participation, as the more paddlers we have the more volunteers we’re likely to have. Having as many viable race options at all levels would surely help?

We have lost a few venues (or races at these venues) over the last few seasons, and crucially (given rising costs everywhere) venues with on site camping (Howsham, Tanfield, Fairnilee, Darley Abbey).

I take the points about the lower achieving paddlers losing points due to paddle ups or losing points relatively at events with less paddle ups. However, there seems to be an easy solution here - scrap demotion? I already know of one paddler who isn’t going to race this year in case they get demoted. If they don’t paddle then they can apply for reranking next year, but if they’re demoted it’s game over. This won’t be affecting many people, but if paddlers could race without fear of demotion then it could increase participation slightly.

I understand the “traditional” reason for paddle ups. However, if we continue to do things the same way and don’t take steps to try some new ideas out, then how will we know if there is or isn’t a benefit to change?

Allowing paddle ups to be part of the host division could increase the number of paddle ups, making attending the event a more viable option. Then we’re increasing the racing options for a lot of paddlers, particularly those in the racing “deserts” such at the North East. A div 2 paddler based in Doncaster suddenly has extra viable races at Washburn, Tees and HPP. A Scottish div 2 paddler could have extra opportunities at Tully, plus slightly further afield Washburn and Tees. Div 1 paddlers on a div 1/P weekend suddenly have 2 attractive races that weekend, not just one.

On the plus side, numbers seem to be on the rise at some events this year. Llandysul div 2/3 in a couple of weeks has healthy looking entries. I still think that paddler numbers are down on pre Covid, it’s just that the paddlers that are racing are going to more races. I may be panicking over nothing, and in 3 years time the sport is in a really healthy position.

JimW
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by JimW » Tue May 03, 2022 1:52 pm

Interesting discussion on facebook just now too - I think we need to re-visit the boat definitions and/or when to apply them to see if we can encourage greater participation.

Arrowcraft
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by Arrowcraft » Tue May 24, 2022 12:29 pm

This problem has been brewing for some time. The sport is becoming less inclusive, resources targeted too tightly and focussed on squads and events are less interesting. It appears that St John Sturgess's view might be right. If we focus on the top of the sport, the bottom will fall out of it. I think it does need some out of the box thinking and Joel makes some excellent points. He loves the sport and wants it to grow. As do most of us., presumably in our own way, all of us.

If you want more div 1's, stop promoting them all to Prem right away by giving them 25 races a year to get promoted at. Make them work for it a bit and maybe they will appreciate Prem when they get there. Plus, they will race harder, train harder and compete better at Div 1...seems straightforward enough.

But the real problem is the foundations of canoe slalom. If you want more div 1's then you need more div 2's as well. And consequently more div3's and 4's to feed a divisional system. The policy of targeting resources in centres like HPP and Lee Valley, filling them full of nonsense and self importance might produce a small set of athletes...90% of whom will retire at 17 when the dream they were sold falls apart...but also a small set of paddlers generally.

The sport, since olympic success in 2012 is collapsing around it's very narrow focus. It's become a kids sport. Look at the leagues. When the kids stopped coming in over lockdown....nobody came in and the usual ratio left, plus a few more...This will cost us medals in future championships. The whole experiment looks like it has failed. If your only sell is selection and olympics...and the rest is second class...this is what happens.

It will take 4 years to rebuild. Possibly 6. It can be done. It's been done before and will probably be done again. But it needs a refocus. Focus on entrants to the sport and spend money there that is currently wasted with endless layers of pointless academies and squads. stop wasting all the money paying for water time at Lee Valley at £400 per hour or whatever it is these days and get lots of new paddlers into boats splashing around at Stone and Ironbridge and Oughtibridge and Frome and Symmonds Yat, Llandyssul etc. Get them slaloming and having fun. DON"T put on an accelerated pathway to success that just trounces everyone every year before they retire at 17..it undermines the rest of the sport that they simply stop enjoying being beaten by a well coached, sport funded kid with additional access to water, equipment and coaching...Maybe some people will come back and enjoy paddling.

Focus on the bottom of the sport and the top will sort itself out all by itself. It always has. Focus on the top of the sport and the bottom will fall out. Make being a Premier Paddler actually mean something again and make it hard to achieve...stop tilting the board to justify the waste of money and slalom might survive.

CeeBee
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by CeeBee » Wed May 25, 2022 11:20 am

Arrowcraft, I couldn't agree more.

I for one have been saying this for years now. The distortion between the funded squads and the rest is causing so many issues , not least picking off the better paddlers from the club so club sessions are decimated and the very coaches who have coached and nurtured these paddlers and enjoyed seeing them race and improve lose them to the squad system. Most then don't paddle at all with the club (we do encourage them to stay involved).

They don't return when they get disillusioned with trying to stay on squad and give up. It is not a sustainable environment and we also lose most of the squad families to helping with the club too as they aren't at training to get involved.

My husband lost his health trying to stop exactly this happening in Scotland and the future of the sport is rocky. I too have spent many years nurturing club paddlers and have completely lost heart with how the system works. Fortunately my son had continued to paddle and is enjoying racing again this season as we taught him that sport was for enjoyment and you are not a failure if you are not in the squad.

Arrowcraft
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Re: Is it time for some outside the box thinking?

Post by Arrowcraft » Wed May 25, 2022 12:04 pm

I understand that there are containers full of almost brand new British Canoeing boats, paddles and equipment at HPP and Lee Valley that get used for about 4-6 weeks a year, just rotting away.

With almost no funding, I bet I could get 3 groups of 12 kids into those boats 3 nights a week for for a minimal charge and get them started in slalom canoeing. 36 kids, 3 sessions a week is 108 (say 100) paddle sessions at £3.00 a go is £300 / week revenue for a 12 week program is £3,600 revenue.

Pay that revenue to a Team Athlete to run the coaching (Give them a job and give them all the money thereby supporting the athlete) after 12 weeks, get the kids racing at Div's and then transition them into clubs or if HPP is full, create another one. Then repeat...4 times a year, possibly do it in school groups and get an inter-schools thing going...that's about 212 new paddlers a year entering div 4 using just 12 of the currently rdry and rotting away British Canoeing boats.

After the 12 weeks, the kids can either stay with their team ( or School team) and pay their slightly increased £5.00 a session fee (to the coach) and keep going or they can go into playboating, sprint, WWR or just touring.

Imagine of the British Canoeing boats were actually used to get people into the sport at HPP, Lee Valley, Tully, Halifax, Manchester etc.

Stone, llandyssull, Wye Dean are the only ones I can see building new paddlers...

It's not hard...but it does compete with the squad system which is focussed on getting in money from Sport England and then justifying it...not developing the sport..I ran a slalom squad a ta club a few years ago and my kids were just as competitive as the TID paddlers and I did it for free and everyone had a great time. Podiums were often shared between Lee Valley TID / Nottingham TID / my paddlers / Stone /. Dyssul / wyedean.

It's hard to justify the huge money spent on one system, when a new. little club in the midlands is matching the system for free. 3 of my paddlers ended up on squads and we talked about the nonsense that they were filling the kids with. Elitist crap about the squads being the only way so when they dropped out of the squads...they dropped out of the sport.

If we want to rebuild...and we need to rebuild and take our sport back from the nonsense that is currently killing it...

1. Get kids paddling and having fun
2. Stop filling their heads with nonsense
3. Recirculate small fees into prem athletes to provide them with a small income that will help keep them in the sport.

AND

4. Re value Prem. Make the courses harder, more technical and use more whitewater. Use more natural locations as well as courses...more exciting and stop dumbing it down to accommodate the kids and attract more grown up racers, reduce the fees and costs AND THEN

5. Get Premier races on free to air TV

Leave the Sport England money to fund whatever the GB team want to do...waste on Lee Valley water time for 30 paddlers probably and all the legions of coaches that accompany them. Use the membership money to develop a racing system in the UK that is sustainable and produces an ever growing number of new entrants.

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