Jumping the starter.

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
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Mike Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm

Jumping the starter.

Post by Mike Mitchell » Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:59 am

So at Div 1 and Prem we have an electronic beam start. It's accurate and just about impossible to get any gain on.
I have seen paddlers throw their paddles forward, wave the blade, lean back on the start beam and lean forward on the finish.
But there are probably no gains. It accurate.

Then at Div 2 and 3 we have a starter and finisher pressing a button.
Get a group together with Stop watches and do some test. You will find the human error is about plus or minus 0.2 seconds.
So that could be +2 on the start and finish. Total +0.4 sec
Or it could be -2 on the start and finish. Total -0.4 sec
So a possible difference of 0.8 on the same timed run.

For an example, at Bala Mill in the Div 2 Men.
Sat, 5th place was 87.50 and 9th 88.20. Thats 5 boats in 0.7 seconds.
Sun, 8th place was 79.90 and 11th 80.40. Thats 4 boats in 0.50 seconds.
Llandysul. K1 L
Sat. 4th place 121.4 and 9th 122.00. Thats 4 boats over 0.6 seconds
Sun. 2nd place 119.70 and 4th place 120.20. Thats 3 boats one 0.50 seconds.

If you look at other Div 2 races, it's clear. Times are close, Racing is fast and the standard high. So lots of paddlers are getting the same times.
This is actually good, racing is close, people are sharing points and pushing each other on, but could we make it more accurate.

Without a defined Start line and finish line the discrepancy's could be even higher.
A different Starter and finisher for second runs could be slower/faster or looking at a different start line.

At Bala Mill there was 2 or 3 different lines to gate 1.
As a paddle you need to make the decision which was the quickest.
For me it was sit close to the start line you think the starter is looking at, when they say 5 just go, if they are not quite ready the gain could be more than the 0.2 second human error.

So going forward it would be good to look at a beam start/finish at some events.
At sites like Symonds Yat this would be hard and is probably the reason we don't run a Div 1 event.
So as a minimum it would be nice if organisers could use a start and finish gate to increase the accuracy.
It just need 2 poles, so the starter/finisher and competitor have something to aim for.

We must understand that Div 2/3 paddlers also train hard for events and the cost of attending events is high.
So they deserve an accurate timing system.

CeeBee
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Falkirk

Re: Jumping the starter.

Post by CeeBee » Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:18 pm

This is one of so many factors affecting runs.

Even if we had beams, these are not easily transported , would need maintained and I suspect that the majority of clubs do not have the expertise nor do we have the infrastructure or time to set up and run beams and deal with any issues that arise when they go faulty.

It's already hard enough running events particularly with the current consumer expectations from paddlers coaches and parents complaining on the bankside about the volunteers running events and putting them off ever doing so again.

As well as manual timing differences there are also the anomalies of judging with paddlers not getting penalties, the difference in quality of boats/equipment based on what families/clubs can afford, quality of coaching, accessibility to water, enough events to attend etc. At ranking races these anomolies in judging and timing sometimes work in your favour and sometimes they don't.

The most important thing is that paddlers are enjoying paddling and getting opportunities. It doesn't matter if there are paddlers bunched together on the results list when the results are close. With time, the paddlers will still get promoted and can Paddle Up for experience until they are promoted.

Of bigger concern is what is happening to the sport - there are 2 sports running as Canoe Slalom - the program funded sport and the rest of the paddlers with the rest of the paddlers having little voice or influence and dropping out of the sport.

There is far too much emphasis on progressing quickly and getting into squads and the sense of failure if they don't rather than the emphasis on letting paddlers progress at their own rate, enjoy racing, making lifelong friends and staying in the sport. There are diminishing number of clubs doing slalom and running slaloms and diminishing volunteers - this is where the focus needs to be directed.

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Jumping the starter.

Post by Nick Penfold » Thu Jun 09, 2022 5:58 pm

I buy Mike's point that the start and finish lines can be quite vaguely defined. Why not hang a spare pole on each end of the ropes that usually carry start and finish banners, so that starter and finisher can sight between them? Low/no tech.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Jumping the starter.

Post by Dee » Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:40 pm

From the rules
10.4.1 The finish line must be marked clearly on both sides of the course.
UK The Start and Finish may not be the same gate.
This should give the finisher something to eye across and could just be a finish gate.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

djberriman
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Jumping the starter.

Post by djberriman » Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:34 am

It should not be a gate, there is no requirement for a paddler to go through it, they just have to cross the finish line.

I've seen one placed on the opposite site of the river to the last gate, time could be saved by ignoring it and paddling straight over the finish line.

As per Nick's comment a pole just in front of the finisher and one on the far side is enough, it's what we used at Howsham to give a clear reference point.

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Jumping the starter.

Post by JimW » Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:17 pm

When I read the title I thought this was going to be about the rule that you are supposed to start within 5 seconds (either way) of your start time / when the starter's countdown gets to zero. But actually it is about something else :D

Obviously course designers should be familiar with the rules for start and finish, and often are not at lower division races and/or leave it to whoever is in charge of timing.

At many venues we use slalom poles on an extra bearer to define start and finish lines, which is OK when it isn't windy, but if it is windy hopefully both gates are displaced the same amount at the start an end of your run. At Pinkston I normally thread 3 spreaders onto a bearer with the number on the middle one and poles at the outsdide ends of the other 2. For start these end up hanging over the blocks so completely cover the whole racing channel. For finish I tie a bit of rope between each of them so that when pulled into position they make a really wide gate that covers the whole width of the flow I expect paddlers naturally to end up finishing on (there is cross flow so this can vary a lot, and you would be surprised how many don't look at and try to choose fastest or shortest route but just follow the flow).

Fixed poles driven into the ground would be better because the wind can't move them, but that is difficult to achieve with a concrete cope around the WW course, and the wall around the basin is too high to sight the line at body level, and other venues have similar issues. You can't use a free standing marker (i.e. pole sticking out of a road cone) in case it moved by accident or otherwise.

I don't know about the events Mitch is reporting on, but most do define a line, and the main problem is with how (or even if) start and finish are briefed. It is really very simple, position yourself so both poles are directly in line and look like just 1 pole, then start or stop the watch (simultaneously pushing the Tutti button) when you see the paddlers BODY touch the pole. If your poles are not on the banks, there is no need to try and judge whether paddlers have gone between the poles in fact, if you are properly lined up you can't tell. If your start/finish people are sitting off top one side so they can judge if the paddler is between the poles, they can't take consistent times, especially when they change over. As long as you are doing that properly it is all down to difference in reaction times, so probably best to have changeovers between classes, and ideally same person for 1st and 2nd run, although since any difference will be the same for the whole class it shouldn't affect the order.

Talking about course design rules, who apart from Ken Baillie knows what the minimum and maximum distance between the last gate and the finish line are allowed to be?

I'm going to write a separate essay on beam timing...

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Jumping the starter.

Post by JimW » Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:08 pm

Beam Timing at lower divisions.

Technically there is no problem, go for it!

You will need to understand a few things, and there are some little complications but not as serious as may seem.

Lets start with the myths (sorry CeeBee, you answered so you get quoted)
Even if we had beams, these are not easily transported , would need maintained and I suspect that the majority of clubs do not have the expertise nor do we have the infrastructure or time to set up and run beams and deal with any issues that arise when they go faulty.
Beam technology has changed massively since the SCA set were built, modern ones are easy to transport and easy to set up. I think the main issue is the cost, although it has reduced. I think Ken told me these are now about £500 each https://alge-timing.com/AlgeTiming_V2/e ... /pr1a.html, and depending on venue you will probably need 4 or 8 of them, but maybe only 2, 3 or even 6

These can be powered by AA batteries for 38 hours, so budget for a set of batteries per race weekend to avoid risk of one going flat mid race. That does away with almost everything in the heavy boxes we currently lug around - most of what is in them is a 12v battery to power the beams.

They can be mounted on tripods or via a bracket to a post - noting the issue about accidental movement, you would want to be able to secure the tripods or use posts. Each unit has 3D adjustment so you can fine tune the direction it points in, when you come to set it up, you put it in setup mode and an LED on the back of the unit will indicate when you get close to a good alignment, and when you have it spot on. I think there is a sight line on top of the case (might be thinking of the microgate ones WWR have) so you can get it pretty close by eye first, it seems to be possible to get good alignment with just a few seconds of fiddling.

Each unit is essentially a switch, open circuit when the beam is intact, and closes when the beam is broken. It is actually a little more complex internally because it sends an impulse when closed which is what starts and stops the clock, but you don't need to understand details because all that is done internally.

For slalom we like to minimise accidental signals due to water splashes of paddlers trying to break the beam with their paddle, we therefore use 2 beams directly above/below each other a small distance apart so both have to be broken simultaneously to start/stop the clock. this doesn't require anything complex - they are switches so if you wire them in series, the circuit is only complete when both are closed/send an impulse. Connect black on one unit to Tutti and red to the black on the other unit, then red from the other unit to Tutti. We already have wires/adapters that could be used for this, but probably you would want to make up dedicated leads.

So thats 4 beam units, 2 for start and 2 for finish. If your river is less than 25m wide this works, you need 4 reflectors as well (buy as reflective sets), Pinkston start across 8m channel - no problem.
If your river is more than 25m wide, up to 150m wide (so maybe still a challenge at Tully start) instead of reflectors you need another 4 beam units. Each has a switch on the back to change between transmit mode and receive mode, so you set them up in pairs with 1 set to transmit and the other to receive (make one side ofthe river T and the other R). Setup is the same except you point at the opposite beam unit instead of a reflector, and again LEDs help you dial it in really quickly. Ken has tested this just above the bridge at Tully and he was able to set them up on his own very quickly, making a full width beam finish line very possible.

For div 1 and prem an entirely separate timing system is used, requiring better PCs and software licenses and a whole bunch of other expensive equipment alongside the beams so that they can have beams for main start and finish and push buttons for backup times.
BUT, the beams send a pulse that is similar to the push buttons we use with Tutti. Pulse length and voltage are probably different but it will work in place of your push button to start and stop the clocks. The beams will replace the push buttons, so you will need to use stopwatches for backup times, I am not sure if it makes any technical difference whether you have the start/finish comms running through the panel, voice doesn't cause start/finish pulses now, but the push button is connected to the headset amp, the beams could be plugged in directly and the headsets on a separate circuit not using the panel, but if you keep comms through the panel and there is a beam problem, you can simply plug the push buttons into the headset amps and revert to push button finish within seconds of deciding the beams can't be fixed in a sensible time.

So, depending on your goals/budget/venue this may be quite simple.
You need to take rules 10.5.3 and 10.5.4 into consideration. If your goal is just to ensure better consistency, you can use any beam configuration you want and time to 0.1 second accuracy - i.e. for a narrow course you could just use 2 units with reflectors, or for a wider course 4 units, each example providing a single beam which complies with 10.5.4.
If your goal is to increase resolution to help split the results up in better detail (which I don't think was Mitch's aim just now, but with the grouping he reports it may be in future) then you need to comply with 10.5.3 which is slalom committee approved system using dual beams. The beams I linked above I think are the ones already used in England for div 1 and P (soon to be used in Scotland) and all the rest of the equipment is already supplied/approved by the committee so I'm pretty sure that if you had enough units for your venue (4 or 8 depending on width) it should be easy enough to get an OK to use them for 0.01 second timing (can anyone confirm that?), albeit you don't have the rest of the kit and software used for Div 1 and your backup will be stopwatches (none of that is defined in the rule, but might be considered by the decision to approve or not)
There are other makes of beam, you might find others less expensive, but might need to do more to get your setup approved for 0.01s timing, but I don't see any problem for 0.1s timing.

I have concentrated on beams right across the river, because this is the easiest thing to set up and most portable. If you can't afford enough beams for a wide river you could make start/finish gates like the ones used at Tully and mount the beams on them (they have a bracket to fit them to a pole), but that is going to reduce your portability and increase setup complexity (need to remember to align before pulling the gate out). We have already determined that the start and finish line should be defined either side of the river, but where we need to use start/finish gates for beams the markers are clearly not either side, but the lines are full width, so if paddlers are happy to gamble with stop watch times they are free to not use the gates and will only get backup times. Some of you know there was a debate/protest at Tully div 1 about start gate position and possible alternative start position, where the chief judge decided that paddlers must use the gate because the alternative position was too far from the starter for paddlers to be able to follow rule 10.1.5, and because several who tried it in practise reported it was shallow and rocky and a bit of a lottery.

It is all possible, and actually not that difficult, the biggest issue for the committee to provide beams with Tutti, is that every venue will need a different configuration of beams/reflectors/tripods/posts etc. with a much wider variety needed than for div 1 and prem (some sites have specific beam mounting gear kept on site although the beams travel with the timing team), so I think it would be up to individual clubs or groups of clubs to invest in something to work at their venue(s)?

Of course, if you are reading this as a person that does setup for your club's races and it doesn't seem straightforward, maybe it is still too complicated.

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