Last year the vets points were changed introducing a difficulty factor. Additional points are added to your score in recognition that the higher division race is a more difficult course. This was introduced even though there are more points available in the higher division races.
How can it be acceptable that a Veteran can gain more points than the winner of the normal ranked winner. E.g. In Div 2 the normal maximum points is 500 but a Vet could get 650 with the same or better time. This year there are several cases where vets in Div 2 have been awarded more than 500 points and vets in Div 1 have been awarded more than 1000.
If a vet is in the top 50% of the ranked paddlers then they are not finding it difficult!
If a vet is in the top 50% of the ranked race they are already getting more points than anyone in the division below so should the difficulty factor be less in the top 50%?
Should the difficulty factor be capped so that the maximum points awarded for any Vets race is equal to the division of the race?
Vet getting too many points
Re: Vet getting too many points
Yep I agree, just get the ranking points, same as paddle ups.
Re: Vet getting too many points
Those paddlers doing div 3 vets are getting a rough deal, maybe we should take a percentage of all veterans results, say 10 percent and all veterans would benefit instead of a massive 700 or 400 points
Re: Vet getting too many points
I don't worry about vet points any more, just like to see where I come against the other vets on the day.
If I cared about the points I would be racing in lower divisions, but I like the challenge of harder courses and accept that sometimes I won't score at all.
If I cared about the points I would be racing in lower divisions, but I like the challenge of harder courses and accept that sometimes I won't score at all.
Re: Vet getting too many points
Vets points calculations were only revised in the rules last year, following massive discussions and trials alongside previous points. Therefore, I think you are stuck with them for the coming year at least! Maybe you could consider proposing alternatives for the 2023 ACM and persuading other vets to join you, but I can't see anything being adopted this year!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Re: Vet getting too many points
Yep can’t spend anymore time on vets points
Re: Vet getting too many points
So, probably worth a bit of background and an explanation as to why vets points are as they are now.
Prior to this year, vets just got the points they would have had if they were in the ranking race (at least for the last couple of years since we moved away from the time modifier we had before that).
The issue was that because of the high level of Div 1 and Prem paddlers, for the vast majority of vets it was impossible to get more than 500 points at a Div 1, and more than about 200 points at a Prem, despite doing really solid runs, due to the difficulty of the water & course. Those paddlers however could easily get maximum points at a Div 2, so if you want to win the overall for the year most vets were better off racing Div 2's than challenging themselves at Div 1/Prem races.
Personal example, I raced the HPP Prem recently and had an absolute blinder of a run (for me) and managed to beat three Prem C1M (obviously not on pace, I managed a solid run, they had 50's). Under the old points system I'd have got 308 points, so slightly more than what I'd get at a Div 3 or just over mid-field at a Div 2. With the new system I ended up with 931.
Hope that helps clarify, but happy to discuss further!
Paul
Prior to this year, vets just got the points they would have had if they were in the ranking race (at least for the last couple of years since we moved away from the time modifier we had before that).
The issue was that because of the high level of Div 1 and Prem paddlers, for the vast majority of vets it was impossible to get more than 500 points at a Div 1, and more than about 200 points at a Prem, despite doing really solid runs, due to the difficulty of the water & course. Those paddlers however could easily get maximum points at a Div 2, so if you want to win the overall for the year most vets were better off racing Div 2's than challenging themselves at Div 1/Prem races.
Personal example, I raced the HPP Prem recently and had an absolute blinder of a run (for me) and managed to beat three Prem C1M (obviously not on pace, I managed a solid run, they had 50's). Under the old points system I'd have got 308 points, so slightly more than what I'd get at a Div 3 or just over mid-field at a Div 2. With the new system I ended up with 931.
Hope that helps clarify, but happy to discuss further!
Paul
Re: Vet getting too many points
Hi Paul / all,
I think that you have very effectively explained the issue that I have with the new / current Vet. Ranking Points system.
No problem with the justification of a reward for paddling on more challenging water.
However your points gained are not as a result of how well you perform but more determined by how badly the Div. 1 / Prem. paddlers perform at that event.
Take the results from recent Graveyard for an example. Some Vets. got very low points on Saturday but then the same paddlers got over 700 points ( more than coming higher than half way up in a Div. 1 race) on the Sunday as a result of double 50 runs by the host division paddlers.
The same happened at Tully and I suspect may happen again this coming weekend at Llandysul.
But as we all know, none of us Vets. care much about Ranking Points. (Apparently)
See you around.
Steve
I think that you have very effectively explained the issue that I have with the new / current Vet. Ranking Points system.
No problem with the justification of a reward for paddling on more challenging water.
However your points gained are not as a result of how well you perform but more determined by how badly the Div. 1 / Prem. paddlers perform at that event.
Take the results from recent Graveyard for an example. Some Vets. got very low points on Saturday but then the same paddlers got over 700 points ( more than coming higher than half way up in a Div. 1 race) on the Sunday as a result of double 50 runs by the host division paddlers.
The same happened at Tully and I suspect may happen again this coming weekend at Llandysul.
But as we all know, none of us Vets. care much about Ranking Points. (Apparently)
See you around.
Steve
Re: Vet getting too many points
"However your points gained are not as a result of how well you perform but more determined by how badly the Div. 1 / Prem. paddlers perform at that event." Harsh... 
don't worry, I know what you're getting at Steve...
I would say though that if you're paddling-up (although lets not get into the actual paddle-up discussion...) on far more challenging water (whether that's Prem, Div 1 or a Div 2) it's not easy to get a solid run without 50's but still quick enough to be above those paddlers who are quick but may make a mistake (and on both runs).
Shame I'll be missing Llandysul this year, but I'll be keeping a close eye on the results!
Cheers
don't worry, I know what you're getting at Steve...I would say though that if you're paddling-up (although lets not get into the actual paddle-up discussion...) on far more challenging water (whether that's Prem, Div 1 or a Div 2) it's not easy to get a solid run without 50's but still quick enough to be above those paddlers who are quick but may make a mistake (and on both runs).
Shame I'll be missing Llandysul this year, but I'll be keeping a close eye on the results!
Cheers
Re: Vet getting too many points
I think Ship has a valid point.
As Paul has explained, because all vets are ranked together the bonus points are there so that vets cpable of scoring at higher division races are able to outscore vets racing at lower division races, when their actual score within the higher division is so low that their best 5 won't even represent winning div 3 races, which they would by a huge margin.
However, I can't see any justification ever for vets scoring more than the maximum score for the host division - yes the bonus booster means they might get there after only beating 60% of the division, but surely if you can score more than the winners points, then it is still advantageous for many vets to enter lower division races to ramp their scores up? Which is what the changes were meant to prevent.
I think the bonus should be applied but total points capped at the host division win points. That is relatively simple to implement (compared to a sliding scale if achieving a certain position) and I think would be a better embodiment of the aim of the changes.
Unfortunately due to sciatica taking me out of paddling since June I have been unable to achieve my expected 200 points this year
As Paul has explained, because all vets are ranked together the bonus points are there so that vets cpable of scoring at higher division races are able to outscore vets racing at lower division races, when their actual score within the higher division is so low that their best 5 won't even represent winning div 3 races, which they would by a huge margin.
However, I can't see any justification ever for vets scoring more than the maximum score for the host division - yes the bonus booster means they might get there after only beating 60% of the division, but surely if you can score more than the winners points, then it is still advantageous for many vets to enter lower division races to ramp their scores up? Which is what the changes were meant to prevent.
I think the bonus should be applied but total points capped at the host division win points. That is relatively simple to implement (compared to a sliding scale if achieving a certain position) and I think would be a better embodiment of the aim of the changes.
Unfortunately due to sciatica taking me out of paddling since June I have been unable to achieve my expected 200 points this year
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Mike Mitchell
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm
Re: Vet getting too many points
I agree the new System is not working.
Its ok for me, I get lots of points at Prem races and not quite as many at Div 1s
But when I look at the results there are a lot of paddlers that don't get any points at these races.
Entering a Div 1 and racing for 2 Day for No points is rubbish.
At Llandysul this weekend. 3 Ladies in the Vets, One with 2 clear Runs and they all get 0 points.
Quite a lot of the Men also got 0 points.
There are often enough men to have a quorate race. So let's just have are own division.
If the Ladies or C1s are not quorate then they can be calculated against the Vet M.
If the Vet Men is Not Quorate then a percentage calculation needs to be agreed.[ maybe 150% has been subjected.]
Points could be something like following - [ Div 3, 300.] [ Div 2, 500.] [ Div1 700.] [ Prem 900. ]
If Vets want to change it then it needs to be proposed quickly for this years ACM.
It's probably something that needs looking at for next year.
The above is just some quick suggestions, maybe the existing system could be changed a bit so everyone got points and level the results up a bit.
Dont tell me No One is bothered about points, as everyone takes about it all the time.
So I am happy with the existing system but if we want to grow the Class and take it forward we need to make a level playing field and thats not Slalom on a Lake.
Its ok for me, I get lots of points at Prem races and not quite as many at Div 1s
But when I look at the results there are a lot of paddlers that don't get any points at these races.
Entering a Div 1 and racing for 2 Day for No points is rubbish.
At Llandysul this weekend. 3 Ladies in the Vets, One with 2 clear Runs and they all get 0 points.
Quite a lot of the Men also got 0 points.
There are often enough men to have a quorate race. So let's just have are own division.
If the Ladies or C1s are not quorate then they can be calculated against the Vet M.
If the Vet Men is Not Quorate then a percentage calculation needs to be agreed.[ maybe 150% has been subjected.]
Points could be something like following - [ Div 3, 300.] [ Div 2, 500.] [ Div1 700.] [ Prem 900. ]
If Vets want to change it then it needs to be proposed quickly for this years ACM.
It's probably something that needs looking at for next year.
The above is just some quick suggestions, maybe the existing system could be changed a bit so everyone got points and level the results up a bit.
Dont tell me No One is bothered about points, as everyone takes about it all the time.
So I am happy with the existing system but if we want to grow the Class and take it forward we need to make a level playing field and thats not Slalom on a Lake.
Re: Vet getting too many points
I actually agree with Mr Harrett over this 
Its poor that at Div P/1 Vet points are dependent on a ranking paddler getting 50s on both runs.
Looking through this year's results, most events have enough K1M vets entries to be quorate. The other classes often have at least three entrants.
It would be far simpler to revert the points calculations to match the rest of the "younger" classes. I would suggest adopting a lower quorum of three. This would do away with the extra points allowances for harder courses, ie at a Div 2 event the winning vet would get 500 points and pro-rata down.
As mentioned, the three K1W vets at Llandysul div 1 this weekend all got 30 points each. If we reverted to the original system they would score 1000, 666 & 333 points respectively. The K1M vets at the same race had seven entries and four all scored 424 points with the 400 point addition. This was only because a div 1 guy got 50s on both runs. Otherwise we'd have all scored only 24 points.
Its poor that at Div P/1 Vet points are dependent on a ranking paddler getting 50s on both runs.
Looking through this year's results, most events have enough K1M vets entries to be quorate. The other classes often have at least three entrants.
It would be far simpler to revert the points calculations to match the rest of the "younger" classes. I would suggest adopting a lower quorum of three. This would do away with the extra points allowances for harder courses, ie at a Div 2 event the winning vet would get 500 points and pro-rata down.
As mentioned, the three K1W vets at Llandysul div 1 this weekend all got 30 points each. If we reverted to the original system they would score 1000, 666 & 333 points respectively. The K1M vets at the same race had seven entries and four all scored 424 points with the 400 point addition. This was only because a div 1 guy got 50s on both runs. Otherwise we'd have all scored only 24 points.
Re: Vet getting too many points
Please excuse me while I go for a lie down.
Shocked and stunned.
Shocked and stunned.
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Mike Mitchell
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm
Re: Vet getting too many points
I can not believe that Phil and Steve are actually agreeing on something.
Then whats harder to understand I agree with them.
I must have court something from all the River Swims.
Then whats harder to understand I agree with them.
I must have court something from all the River Swims.
Re: Vet getting too many points
For some time I've been trialing possible solutions for a better Vets points calculation, as those of you on the Whatsapp 'Slalom Masters Group' will have seen.
I've listened to people's concerns and modified potential solutions to test against 2022 results data.
The big challenge is how to be quorate in each class, which is currently addressed by comparing Vets to the ranking div, by class. The 'difficulty factor' tried to improve the comparabilty of points awarded at different divisions.
Reducing the quorate hurdle to 3 would rarely help the C1 Vets classes.
To recap dicussions from the Whatsapp group, to explore the quorate challenge differently, I looked at including Masters in the points calculation for Vets (to run separately and not in place of the Masters' points/rankings in their divisions), which would help in K1M and K1W, but still doesn't help in C1 classes.
I explored combining classes to calculate Vets points, which was not popular.
There are good reasons to compare the Masters+Vets by class, but there is an easier way to get around the challenge of how to be quorate:
- normalise each Vets Best Score as a proportion of the ranking div class winner's best score,
eg if ranking div class winner best score is 98.00, and a vet scores 118.50, that would give a %Winner value of (118.5 / 98) = 1.209
The ranking div class winner's best score is the most consistent, reliable parameter to compare against.
Its representative of how fast a ranking div paddler can go on the particular course set (water-level, difficulty).
Its not reliant on the number of racers, or the performance/penalties of the slower racers.
Its different for each class, K1M, K1W, C1M, C1W.
Even if there is only 1 vet in a class, then meaningful Vets Points can be calculated.
The challenge then becomes how to have a simple calculation of points derived from each Vet's best score expressed as a %Winner score, eg 1.1 or 1.5 or 2.4 or whatever it is.
From looking at the 2022 race results, plots of the ranking racers' Points vs %Winner shows empirical relationships by class at each race.
A straight-line function relating 'Vets Proposed Points' to %Winner score can be created for each division.
These functions can be plotted together to see how 'Vets Proposed Points' vs %Winner score would compare across divisions.
The functions can be sense-checked by modelling the 'Vets Proposed Points' for all older paddlers at all 2022 races, and then looking at the points of individual racers, who raced at different divisions.
As each function is a straight line, it could be easily input to software that calculates race points.
This sense-checking is ongoing, and the functions might yet be refined, but so far its looking good - ie if this approach had been used for the 2022 season then Vets would be happier with their points. Points would have been awarded based on each racers' own performance, Vets would have been racing each other, rankings would reflect performances at different divisions in a more meaningful way.
I need to share some plots to illustrate, which is easier done in the Whatsapp group, unless I can post images here?
I've listened to people's concerns and modified potential solutions to test against 2022 results data.
The big challenge is how to be quorate in each class, which is currently addressed by comparing Vets to the ranking div, by class. The 'difficulty factor' tried to improve the comparabilty of points awarded at different divisions.
Reducing the quorate hurdle to 3 would rarely help the C1 Vets classes.
To recap dicussions from the Whatsapp group, to explore the quorate challenge differently, I looked at including Masters in the points calculation for Vets (to run separately and not in place of the Masters' points/rankings in their divisions), which would help in K1M and K1W, but still doesn't help in C1 classes.
I explored combining classes to calculate Vets points, which was not popular.
There are good reasons to compare the Masters+Vets by class, but there is an easier way to get around the challenge of how to be quorate:
- normalise each Vets Best Score as a proportion of the ranking div class winner's best score,
eg if ranking div class winner best score is 98.00, and a vet scores 118.50, that would give a %Winner value of (118.5 / 98) = 1.209
The ranking div class winner's best score is the most consistent, reliable parameter to compare against.
Its representative of how fast a ranking div paddler can go on the particular course set (water-level, difficulty).
Its not reliant on the number of racers, or the performance/penalties of the slower racers.
Its different for each class, K1M, K1W, C1M, C1W.
Even if there is only 1 vet in a class, then meaningful Vets Points can be calculated.
The challenge then becomes how to have a simple calculation of points derived from each Vet's best score expressed as a %Winner score, eg 1.1 or 1.5 or 2.4 or whatever it is.
From looking at the 2022 race results, plots of the ranking racers' Points vs %Winner shows empirical relationships by class at each race.
A straight-line function relating 'Vets Proposed Points' to %Winner score can be created for each division.
These functions can be plotted together to see how 'Vets Proposed Points' vs %Winner score would compare across divisions.
The functions can be sense-checked by modelling the 'Vets Proposed Points' for all older paddlers at all 2022 races, and then looking at the points of individual racers, who raced at different divisions.
As each function is a straight line, it could be easily input to software that calculates race points.
This sense-checking is ongoing, and the functions might yet be refined, but so far its looking good - ie if this approach had been used for the 2022 season then Vets would be happier with their points. Points would have been awarded based on each racers' own performance, Vets would have been racing each other, rankings would reflect performances at different divisions in a more meaningful way.
I need to share some plots to illustrate, which is easier done in the Whatsapp group, unless I can post images here?