Did the Dee today - and it was very big. No way could they have run a slalom on it either.
Did two runs from the Horseshoe weir to below Town Falls once in slalom boats, and once in playboats. On the second run we did Serpents Tail twice, and the Town four times, no hassles, just lots of smiles and comments from the tourists (and Llangollen was packed - it was a nice day).
Great playholes (as long as you like your playholes big):
river left after the Chain Bridge
half way down to the Tail
breaking surf wave just after the railway bridge
JJs (of course)
friendly stopper river left by the station
stopper centre river before the bridge
There was a big unfriendly stopper between the two at Town Falls, but we skirted that one. Someone else might want to try that one. Town falls itself had a nice big hole on it, as did Serpents Tail You could go round them if you really wanted to, but it was a blast just going through the biggest bits.
Dee - Dee Access
As a slalom paddler who did not support the attempts to get an agreement in time for Llangollen dare slalom boast about paddling the Dee. This makes a mockery of slalom supporting
recreational paddlers and the WCA. Bandit runs of the Dee will certainly not help our cause it will only make it worse. I hope you are ashamed of yourself. Why do I and others bother putting the time and effort into getting the support of the people that matter in gaining an agreement, only for you to cut the feet from under us and boast in this arrogant way.
recreational paddlers and the WCA. Bandit runs of the Dee will certainly not help our cause it will only make it worse. I hope you are ashamed of yourself. Why do I and others bother putting the time and effort into getting the support of the people that matter in gaining an agreement, only for you to cut the feet from under us and boast in this arrogant way.
I am sorry you feel that way. It was not my intention to boast about my exploits this weekend, just to make paddlers generally aware of the current situation on the Dee. Furthermore, I really appreciate the efforts you have made to run this event in the past, and the efforts continue to make to bring back the race.
It must be obvious to all now that negotiation with the riparian interests will not bring any agreement that will meet the aspirations of canoeists, apart from maybe a relatively small number of slalom paddlers. However, as a slalom paddler, I do not wish to agree to not paddle the Dee in the winter, simply in order to have a couple of races in October.
The Dee is a fantastic recreational resource, and it was particularly good this weekend. It was a shame to see so few people paddling it, apart from at JJs.
So unless someone can prove to me that there is any likelihood of a the riparian interests coming to any reasonable agreement with the canoeists, I shall be doing all I can to encourage greater use of the Dee.
It must be obvious to all now that negotiation with the riparian interests will not bring any agreement that will meet the aspirations of canoeists, apart from maybe a relatively small number of slalom paddlers. However, as a slalom paddler, I do not wish to agree to not paddle the Dee in the winter, simply in order to have a couple of races in October.
The Dee is a fantastic recreational resource, and it was particularly good this weekend. It was a shame to see so few people paddling it, apart from at JJs.
So unless someone can prove to me that there is any likelihood of a the riparian interests coming to any reasonable agreement with the canoeists, I shall be doing all I can to encourage greater use of the Dee.
-
Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
- Contact:
Looking at sites like UK rivers guidbook, recreational paddlers are and have been continuing to paddle the Dee, despite urging us not to hold the slalom there.
In fact there is a general feeling running through the posts on UKRG that so called 'bandit' runs are now allowable as there is no agreement, and in fact should be encouraged.
I thought that this MUST have made the Execs decision even harder, but there is a difference between 'Bandit runs' and an organised competition, not teh least being the liability of the organisers, and teh fact that the slalom would have been a static target for any irate fisherfolk.
There is also the paddling day being arranged based at JJ's, with a shuttle to the Chain Bridge to allow you to 'paddle down the canal' to Llangollen. Nice to know there is a consistent approach to support those doing their best to get an agreement isn't it?
In fact there is a general feeling running through the posts on UKRG that so called 'bandit' runs are now allowable as there is no agreement, and in fact should be encouraged.
I thought that this MUST have made the Execs decision even harder, but there is a difference between 'Bandit runs' and an organised competition, not teh least being the liability of the organisers, and teh fact that the slalom would have been a static target for any irate fisherfolk.
There is also the paddling day being arranged based at JJ's, with a shuttle to the Chain Bridge to allow you to 'paddle down the canal' to Llangollen. Nice to know there is a consistent approach to support those doing their best to get an agreement isn't it?
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Does anyone know how the access negotiations are going? The last update at Shared Rivers was in February stating that the riparian owners offer had been rejected.
I have stayed away from the Dee for the last two years, despite it being only an hours drive from home, to allow the negotiators clear air, but it seems to have had no effect. It seems to me now that all the cards are in the riparian owners hands. The only offer the paddlers can make is that if an agreement is reached, they will police the agreement to make sure paddlers do not go on the river outside the agreed times. But the riparian owners have got that already, without having to agree to any reasonable access agreement, The obvious step now is to flood the river with canoeists at all times of the year, until the riparian owners get so fed up that they will come back to the negotiating table ready to make an agreement.
Of course, if anyone knows better than this, please let us all know so that we can make our own decision in an informed manner.
I have stayed away from the Dee for the last two years, despite it being only an hours drive from home, to allow the negotiators clear air, but it seems to have had no effect. It seems to me now that all the cards are in the riparian owners hands. The only offer the paddlers can make is that if an agreement is reached, they will police the agreement to make sure paddlers do not go on the river outside the agreed times. But the riparian owners have got that already, without having to agree to any reasonable access agreement, The obvious step now is to flood the river with canoeists at all times of the year, until the riparian owners get so fed up that they will come back to the negotiating table ready to make an agreement.
Of course, if anyone knows better than this, please let us all know so that we can make our own decision in an informed manner.
i reckon your right... i dont know much about the dee and everything that is goin on, but i know how to annoy people well good.
We might as well jus all go down so there are too many people to do anything about,
to be honest if we did do this i dont think anyone would notice and that'll jus prove how pointless this whole thing is......
We might as well jus all go down so there are too many people to do anything about,
to be honest if we did do this i dont think anyone would notice and that'll jus prove how pointless this whole thing is......
The penny has just dropped:
WCA members want access to the Dee all the time.
They have free access now because there is no agreement.
Any agreement would limit access to particular times and require keeping off the river and policing this at all the times in between.
Slalom competitions require an access agreement in order to avoid sabotage by fisherfolk and to have insurance cover from BCU.
Ergo - Approved Slalom competitions require an access agreement which would limit access to recreational paddlers.
Is this right?
WCA members want access to the Dee all the time.
They have free access now because there is no agreement.
Any agreement would limit access to particular times and require keeping off the river and policing this at all the times in between.
Slalom competitions require an access agreement in order to avoid sabotage by fisherfolk and to have insurance cover from BCU.
Ergo - Approved Slalom competitions require an access agreement which would limit access to recreational paddlers.
Is this right?
It all fits except for two things:
1 - it was the riparian owners who wanted to amend the access agreement, not the paddlers.
2- Up till two years ago the access agreement was working, the river was brim full on the open days, and empty in between, and the WCA were doing OK out of it, since they were charging for the access on the open days.
The Dee is (as far as I know) the only river where race access is negotiated together with general access to the river. There are other slaloms that are run on rivers with dreadful access problems, because the negotiations are between the slalom organiser and the riparian owners of the affected stretch. Is this not an option in this case?
1 - it was the riparian owners who wanted to amend the access agreement, not the paddlers.
2- Up till two years ago the access agreement was working, the river was brim full on the open days, and empty in between, and the WCA were doing OK out of it, since they were charging for the access on the open days.
The Dee is (as far as I know) the only river where race access is negotiated together with general access to the river. There are other slaloms that are run on rivers with dreadful access problems, because the negotiations are between the slalom organiser and the riparian owners of the affected stretch. Is this not an option in this case?
What you are suggesting is exactly what you were objecting to with the petition ?? So now you change your mind?? We did consider getting the agreememnt of landowners etc but the WCA and BCU were putting the pressure on us to cancell to support the recreational paddlers, and they have the right to over ride our decision and pull insurance etc if we had gone against the BCU sorry but recreational paddlers have now lost my support totoally owing to the "I'm alright" attitude - the town and slalom paddlers have lost. Nick Penfolds comment of "Shafted by paddlers" is now becoming truer daily.
-
Pingu
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 12:42 am
- Location: I'm everywhere and nowhere (baby)
- Contact:
Went to MEM today and spoke to JJ about the latest situation.
1. No further news on any access negotiations.
2. The business people in the town are fully (with very few exceptions) behind the restoration of the tours and races.
3. There is very limited public perception of our plight. Most visitors, when asked, were unaware that we are unable to paddle on the river.
4. The next opportunity to get our voice heard will be the forthcoming "Dee Day" on 20/21 November. See the announcement on Nick's Slalom site. JJ said that so far there has been only limited interest in this event from the slalom community.
5. He is speaking to the WCA and the BCU representatives next week to try and get them to support the event.
6. Some (but not very many) people are paddling down through the town section.
The level at MEM was pretty good today (and better than the town section at normal slalom levels).
1. No further news on any access negotiations.
2. The business people in the town are fully (with very few exceptions) behind the restoration of the tours and races.
3. There is very limited public perception of our plight. Most visitors, when asked, were unaware that we are unable to paddle on the river.
4. The next opportunity to get our voice heard will be the forthcoming "Dee Day" on 20/21 November. See the announcement on Nick's Slalom site. JJ said that so far there has been only limited interest in this event from the slalom community.
5. He is speaking to the WCA and the BCU representatives next week to try and get them to support the event.
6. Some (but not very many) people are paddling down through the town section.
The level at MEM was pretty good today (and better than the town section at normal slalom levels).
Out of Darkness cometh Light
I do not remember anything in the petition that said that access for the races should be negotiated separately. The proposal as I read it was to accept whatever agreement the riparian owners offered, as long as we got the races back. The result of this would have been a severe reduction in recreational access, which I am not willing to support, and once agreed would have been the basis for all access negotiations in the future.
-
JCJ
What’s this all about?
The River Dee is one of the most important canoeing rivers in Britain. The first UK slalom was held on Trevor Rocks rapid, downstream of Llangollen. The section above Llangollen is a beautiful, easy touring section. The section through Llangollen, including Town Falls and Serpent’s Tail rapids, ranges from grade II to Grade IV, and provides one of Britain’s most reliable sections of white water. There have been successful ‘tours’, or weekends when canoeing access has been negotiated, for over thirty years, andthese tours brought valuable income to the local tourist economy during the winter months. Previously, the river was open to paddle for six days a year. Now you’re not allowed to paddle any of it.
So what’s the problem?
Basically, the WCA (Welsh Canoeing Association) has been trying to get better recreational access to the Dee for years - they don’t think that six days a year is enough. In trying to secure more access, they upset a major fishing interest on the river, who banned all recreational paddling from the river. They have continued to allow access this winter for small scale canoeing competitions, but the majority of people who want to paddle it aren't allowed.
What do the locals make of this?
The vast majority of locals are really supportive of paddling in the town. Talking to individual businesses, they can't believe that such a major part of their winter income can be lost like this. We're estimating that Llangollen is losing a minimum of £300 000 this winter - the results from the WCA postcard survey are showing that paddlers spend about £30 a day at their destination. We've got pledges of support from over 50 different businesses in the Dee valley, asking for paddlers to be allowed back.
What's happening with the negotiations at the moment?
DEE DAY 11AM 21ST NOVEMBER 2004 LLANGOLLEN TOWN
We will be organising a weekend event in Llangollen to highlight the lack of river access.
The aim is to make the public aware of the current access situation and the damage that it is doing to Canoe-Sport as a whole. It is hoped that this issue is of such importance to canoeists that we get the largest number of participants in one place ever! We are looking to get full media coverage of the event and to make a major positive impact on the public perception of the problem.
The provisional timetable is:
Saturday, Fun Rodeo Event at Mile End Mill.
Saturday, Evening Party, Mile End Mill.
Sunday 11am-1pm Official Protest in Llangollen Town.
Access to the event/party and the Mile End Mill site is free.
For more information please contact:
DeeDays@jjraftcanoe.com Jim Jayes.
The River Dee is one of the most important canoeing rivers in Britain. The first UK slalom was held on Trevor Rocks rapid, downstream of Llangollen. The section above Llangollen is a beautiful, easy touring section. The section through Llangollen, including Town Falls and Serpent’s Tail rapids, ranges from grade II to Grade IV, and provides one of Britain’s most reliable sections of white water. There have been successful ‘tours’, or weekends when canoeing access has been negotiated, for over thirty years, andthese tours brought valuable income to the local tourist economy during the winter months. Previously, the river was open to paddle for six days a year. Now you’re not allowed to paddle any of it.
So what’s the problem?
Basically, the WCA (Welsh Canoeing Association) has been trying to get better recreational access to the Dee for years - they don’t think that six days a year is enough. In trying to secure more access, they upset a major fishing interest on the river, who banned all recreational paddling from the river. They have continued to allow access this winter for small scale canoeing competitions, but the majority of people who want to paddle it aren't allowed.
What do the locals make of this?
The vast majority of locals are really supportive of paddling in the town. Talking to individual businesses, they can't believe that such a major part of their winter income can be lost like this. We're estimating that Llangollen is losing a minimum of £300 000 this winter - the results from the WCA postcard survey are showing that paddlers spend about £30 a day at their destination. We've got pledges of support from over 50 different businesses in the Dee valley, asking for paddlers to be allowed back.
What's happening with the negotiations at the moment?
DEE DAY 11AM 21ST NOVEMBER 2004 LLANGOLLEN TOWN
We will be organising a weekend event in Llangollen to highlight the lack of river access.
The aim is to make the public aware of the current access situation and the damage that it is doing to Canoe-Sport as a whole. It is hoped that this issue is of such importance to canoeists that we get the largest number of participants in one place ever! We are looking to get full media coverage of the event and to make a major positive impact on the public perception of the problem.
The provisional timetable is:
Saturday, Fun Rodeo Event at Mile End Mill.
Saturday, Evening Party, Mile End Mill.
Sunday 11am-1pm Official Protest in Llangollen Town.
Access to the event/party and the Mile End Mill site is free.
For more information please contact:
DeeDays@jjraftcanoe.com Jim Jayes.
-
JCJ
Thank you JJ for providing a place on the River Dee to enjoy when everywhere else is flooded or cancelled. We enjoyed coming last weekend and even had a nostalgic evening meal at Benson’s - not quite the same with football rather than the day’s slalom on the big screen!!
I walked along the canal above Serpent’s Tail and can better understand the frustration of paddlers who have to watch that beautiful river in flood, with not a fisherman in sight, and not to be able to paddle it. I can even understand the view that if there is no agreement then you can paddle.
I still do not understand, however, why the WCA required that the Town Falls slalom races be cancelled, especially as some other ‘small scale canoeing competitions’ have been allowed to go ahead.
Whilst not expecting you to have all the answers, can you tell us:
-What does the WCA consider an acceptable offer of access to be?
-What discussions have there been since February 27th between WCA and the riparian owners/angling bodies, i.e. those who make the offers of access?
Also, have you thought of inviting the latter to the protest party?
Dave Brads point was interesting that other rivers have separate access agreements for recreation and competition - this must be the answer for the River Dee.
With very best regards, Vivienne Mugford
I walked along the canal above Serpent’s Tail and can better understand the frustration of paddlers who have to watch that beautiful river in flood, with not a fisherman in sight, and not to be able to paddle it. I can even understand the view that if there is no agreement then you can paddle.
I still do not understand, however, why the WCA required that the Town Falls slalom races be cancelled, especially as some other ‘small scale canoeing competitions’ have been allowed to go ahead.
Whilst not expecting you to have all the answers, can you tell us:
-What does the WCA consider an acceptable offer of access to be?
-What discussions have there been since February 27th between WCA and the riparian owners/angling bodies, i.e. those who make the offers of access?
Also, have you thought of inviting the latter to the protest party?
Dave Brads point was interesting that other rivers have separate access agreements for recreation and competition - this must be the answer for the River Dee.
With very best regards, Vivienne Mugford
-
jcj
I have been asked some specific questions about Dee Days. A full plan will be published by wednesday 3rd November.
Just to fill in a few gaps at the moment, here is a cut and paste from a recent email.
"I have been waiting for the outcome of the WCA AGM where we are waiting a vote on whether they are going to support Dee Days? I will know by Monday I will then put out our final plan.
Do we take our boats?", Yes. There will opportunities to use them.
"Is there to be a mass paddle on the river?", I can not advocate this.
"What can we do to help on the Saturday, we are not interested in the rodeo?", Just be there and have some fun, I will find jobs if you like, make Banner etc. There should be a great atmosphere around to enjoy.
"Do we attend dressed in paddling kit or civvies?", canoe kit would be good.
"If I take my paddle will it be classed as an offensive weapon?", Not unless you use it as such.
"Placards?", Yes say what you want to say!
"Is the BCU/WCA attending, or just supporting or not?", Still waiting.
" Is there to be a mass portage?", Up to the paddlers.
"Where can we go to get information?" Keep in touch.
DeeDays @jjraftcanoe.com
"Is this going to be big or just a token protest?" I hope and think it will be very big 2-5k
"I haven't seen any publicity, so what is happening?" We will put out press releases in the final ten days.
"Is the minister of Sport attending?" We will ask.
"Does the local Welsh Assembly member know?" Yes.
"Is this just a River Dee and therefore a Welsh issue?" No, it is an example of how bad the access situation is throughout the UK.
"Will the BCU make a representation?" Still waiting.
We have organised extra parking for the weekend, we have highways and police approval for a mass march. We have a route.
I will be asking all to cut and paste all press statements to their local press.
We are still looking for speakers on the protest march. Its amazing we have had no response from anybody on previous request??? Dont be shy!!! Let me know if want to speak to the masses at the protest? Have your say and say what you want to say! Its important everybody has a outlet for their frustrations with the access situation.
Thanks for the question,
Thanks,
Jim.
More info on wednesday.
Just to fill in a few gaps at the moment, here is a cut and paste from a recent email.
"I have been waiting for the outcome of the WCA AGM where we are waiting a vote on whether they are going to support Dee Days? I will know by Monday I will then put out our final plan.
Do we take our boats?", Yes. There will opportunities to use them.
"Is there to be a mass paddle on the river?", I can not advocate this.
"What can we do to help on the Saturday, we are not interested in the rodeo?", Just be there and have some fun, I will find jobs if you like, make Banner etc. There should be a great atmosphere around to enjoy.
"Do we attend dressed in paddling kit or civvies?", canoe kit would be good.
"If I take my paddle will it be classed as an offensive weapon?", Not unless you use it as such.
"Placards?", Yes say what you want to say!
"Is the BCU/WCA attending, or just supporting or not?", Still waiting.
" Is there to be a mass portage?", Up to the paddlers.
"Where can we go to get information?" Keep in touch.
DeeDays @jjraftcanoe.com
"Is this going to be big or just a token protest?" I hope and think it will be very big 2-5k
"I haven't seen any publicity, so what is happening?" We will put out press releases in the final ten days.
"Is the minister of Sport attending?" We will ask.
"Does the local Welsh Assembly member know?" Yes.
"Is this just a River Dee and therefore a Welsh issue?" No, it is an example of how bad the access situation is throughout the UK.
"Will the BCU make a representation?" Still waiting.
We have organised extra parking for the weekend, we have highways and police approval for a mass march. We have a route.
I will be asking all to cut and paste all press statements to their local press.
We are still looking for speakers on the protest march. Its amazing we have had no response from anybody on previous request??? Dont be shy!!! Let me know if want to speak to the masses at the protest? Have your say and say what you want to say! Its important everybody has a outlet for their frustrations with the access situation.
Thanks for the question,
Thanks,
Jim.
More info on wednesday.