Selection

Bill Denboro · Post by **Bill Denboro** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:06 pm

First of all congratulations to the paddlers who were selected after the weekends results to represent Britain this summer.
Also can I ask if anyone does respond to this topic please don’t name any paddlers as this is not fair on anyone.

I am a paddler but did not take part in the selection series this year, but was at all the races and was disappointed to witness on one occasion the rule book thrown out of the window and various occasions protests made against 50second penalties which they new they had acquired.

In Scotland I heard a coach ask his paddler what went wrong in the middle section to which they replied they simply didn't make it to the gate and hence the 50second penalty. So it was with great surprise for me to see a protest form posted by that very paddler claiming they should of had a 2second penalty instead of the 50! In my book other than being dishonest, this is cheating or gamesmanship. If you know you got a 50 you can hardly protest the judges decision!

This is where the rules were totally ignored by the Jury. Bearing in mind this was a selection race as well as a Prem race. The protest was originally rejected on the grounds that it was posted too late. Rule 36.2 of the slalom year book states that,

' Protest is considered only when it is submitted no more than one hour after the official posting of the results of the last competitor in the category.'

The Jury originally rejected the protest because it was posted 65 mins after the results were posted. Then after second runs the protest was revisited after a number of people disagreed with the jury's decision due to the importance of the race. Also a member of the party of protestors was judging the section where the 50 was given!!!!!
The 50 was subsequently removed and the paddler was reminded of the rule. Lucky for them, not so lucky for their fellow competitors also in the selection race.

The paddler in question is under the wing of a very reputable coach who has coached Olympic athletes and I expect knows the rule book thoroughly and should have been able to advise his paddler of the rule regarding protests.

What is the point of a jury if they are not going to abide by the rules they're meant to be upholding. I do sympathise however. I counted over 30 protests at the selection race in Tully. Was this because the judging was of poor quality or were paddlers attempting to exploit the jury and the 'benefit of doubt rule'? I personally think it was the latter. I expect a majority of of these protests were genuine, but I think a few were an attempt to better their chances in the race.

The weekend just gone was the final leg of junior selection and I witnessed two paddlers lodge protests against 50s. The first I watched miss a gate, swear and bang their paddles on their boat and stop paddling for about ten metres. I forgot about this almost immediately after seeing it, but my memory was quickly jogged at lunch time when I went to look at the protests that had been posted. I couldn't believe I saw that this paddler had protested the 50 they knew they had got! This to me is cheating and an insult to the judges who give up their time.

Rule 40.1 of the slalom yearbook states
'a competitor who attempts to win a competition by irregular means, who breaks the rules or who contests their validity, is disqualified from the competition.'

There have been various incidents in the past where paddlers have paddled on the course before the race i.e. when there was no practice and have got away with a warning. I think that we should be enforcing the rules that have been set, not bending them on every occasion a rule is broken. If we racing an International if a protest was submitted one minute late, I expect it wouldn't even be considered. Nobody has an excuse for breaking the rules as they are all in the yearbook and unfortunately this has had a significant result on who has been selected for the GB teams.

Post by **SteveM** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:05 am

Well I wasn't there so can't comment on this race, but maybe there is now a case for videoing selection races as second hand video cameras are pretty cheap these days? If only to help the judges to maintain some credibility and self confidence.

Over 30 protests seems ridiculous.

Steve

Andy Greensmith · Post by **Andy Greensmith** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:18 am

Hi Bill,

I too was at these races and witnessed the incidents that you've described.

I too was shocked and outraged at the decisions that the jury made.

I realise that these are important races but there's no excuse for this. Unfortunately it has alway gone on, maybe its time we sorted it out.

Slalomist · Post by **Slalomist** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:55 am

Agree with everything Bill said. The conduct of some paddlers at these races was appalling. I witnessed paddlers doing as you've described, missing gates, saying to me that they'd missed the gate, and then protesting it knowing that they had missed it!

However there were some people who rightly protested the occasional "very odd" judging decision!

guest · Post by **guest** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:57 am

your a idiot!! you started your topic off by telling people not to mention names in there replies, but you have blatently given enough detail about the situation for everyone to know who it is. whats your beef?! ok, so the protest was 5 minutes late, hardly a long time at such an important race. as for the 'influential coach', its getting a little old isn't it. i'm sure that the organisers of the event and the jury are strong enought to stand up to these people and that they obviously used there best judgment for the situation. if its true that they were heard saying that they got a 50 thats fair enough, they shouldn't have protested. but he obviously got pretty close to the gate if he hit it. i say stop questioning the ability of the people who volunteer to run the events for us and get on with.

Bill Denboro · Post by **Bill Denboro** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:18 pm

I dont have ' a beef' with the paddler. The point I'm making is that a rule is a rule. If you travel 5mph over the speed limit then you have to deal with the consequences.

You say 5 mins is hardly a long time at such an important race. Rubbish...the importance of the race meant the rules should have been upheld and the juries decision should not have been questioned.
The day after selection a protest was made against a touch and was submitted outside the 60min rule. The jury simply rejected the protest because it wasn't posted on time. Why did this not occur at selection? 60 minutes is more than enought time to post a protest. I may be wrong here but I believe you only have something in the region of 15-30 mins to protest at an international race. I my have imagined this....does anyone know the rule?

A jury's best judgement would have to adhered to the rules!

I'm not questioning the ability of the people who run the event. I'm questioning the jury. Yes they do an incredibly difficult job but they should not have to look at thier decisions after they've been made. As it turned out the 50 removed impacted on selection significantly. If the jury stood by their original decision we may have seen different names on the GB teams.

As for pressure being applied.... why do you think the jury decided to revisit the protest form? I hardly believe that they did it out of the blue. I expect somebody gave them a little nudge.

paddler · Post by **paddler** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:04 pm

If this is the case i am thinking of then because of this paddler being alowed over the five minuites i have a feeling that this influenced a place on the gb team (im not completely sure), but if this is the case its completely unfair on the person that lost out. The importance of the race is even more of a reason to stick to the rules.
The amount of protests put in at selection races just for the sakes of putting them in is definatley stupid. If you are going to protest it should be for a genuine reason not just to see if you can get afew seconds knocked off, thats why it would have been a good idea to increase the price of a protest in an attempt to put people off doing this.

beeble · Post by **beeble** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:53 pm

why don't they increase the amount payable to protest to say £10.00. this might help cut out people chancing their arm. this type of thing has gone on for years. All it needs is for a club mate to be judging that particular section of gates and give lesser penalties than they should. Its not fair on the paddlers that miss out on selection when they obviously have better talent than the cheats. it seems that it is now win at all costs and to #### with the consequences.

c1mini · Post by **c1mini** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:57 pm

Guest wrote:your a idiot!! you started your topic off by telling people not to mention names in there replies, but you have blatently given enough detail about the situation for everyone to know who it is. whats your beef?! ok, so the protest was 5 minutes late, hardly a long time at such an important race. as for the 'influential coach', its getting a little old isn't it. i'm sure that the organisers of the event and the jury are strong enought to stand up to these people and that they obviously used there best judgment for the situation. if its true that they were heard saying that they got a 50 thats fair enough, they shouldn't have protested. but he obviously got pretty close to the gate if he hit it. i say stop questioning the ability of the people who volunteer to run the events for us and get on with.

firstly bill did not name any names did he. He simply filled in enough detail to set the situation for all to understand. Now if you can work out who it is that he is talking about then you obviously know that it is true or not. So it is mearly you not him.

Bill : rules are there to upheld and what happened about the over 60 min rule was apparently broked there fore should not have been given, but the competitor may have thought they missed the gate then seen in video that they actually got it, i know there was one person who thought they missed a gate and actually got it. :p

19 · Post by 19 » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:04 pm

This happens type of thing happens a lot in sport. The Man Utd Roy Carrol save incident.........?? And why do some tennis player protest an out call, when it obviously is out?
Many people determined to win, even if it's not fair.

To be honest, I can see it from both directions. I can see how someone might protest an obvious 50; if it gets them on the GB team, then why not. That's if you can live with the fact the you blatently cheated.

However, if I was the paddler that lost their place on the team due to this, then I would be hmm 'very unhappy.' My ultimate belief, even though I can see from both sides, is that cheating, no matter how, is not right.

As for other comments made on this thread. 'guest,' no names were named. Personally, what's the point in keeping the anonymity of the people involved?

As for the coach involved, although the coach did not make the protest, they should have discouraged the paddler from doing so.

guest · Post by **guest** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:17 pm

i never said he mentioned any names, i simply said that he gave enough detail for anyone to work out who he means. the only reason that i brought it up was because we had a similar situation a few years when people felt that certain people shouldn't have been on the world class programme. in that situation no names were mention, but again there was enough info for everyone to know who they were talking about. this upset the relevent people and was completly uncalled for. if you really think that an injustice has been done you should bring it up with the powers that be rather than throwing around wild accusations that could upset the people you are accusing individuals.

Fison100@hotmail.com · Post by **Fison100@hotmail.com** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:50 pm

To reply to this topic i have judged over many years in canoe slalom and have seen where i have given a penalty out and later seen a protest go in and they get the bennifit of doubt and get the penalty taken away. This may sound good but when they have clearly hit or missed the gate etc then why bother. Why not be honest and take it on the chin and to try and not put pressure on the jury and judges etc. Please remember that they do it for free if im right :p

Dutch Geezer · Post by **Dutch Geezer** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:06 pm

Competitors will always try to exploit the rules to their advantage, therefore the rules have to be well written, no ambiguity, no room for individual interpretation and they have to be strictly enforced, otherwise why bother having them.

What would have happened if the competitor who came 4th had protested the Jury's decision for allowing the 'out of time' protest. What if they still feel so strongly about it that they decide to take legal action, remember the pre selection debacle for the Sydney olympics. If you apply the rules fairly, none of this happens.

Look at the last few threads on here and the rules are being questioned all the time, the committe may want to look at the UK rule book with a fresh set of eyes and where the rules are vague or open to interpretation, they should be clarified, otherwise the sport gets devalued, competitors get disillusioned and drop out of the sport and there are too few people as it is, lets not loose any more.

Do you get 30 protests at an International race? what is so different about a UK event, protests over touches are becoming prevalent, if the judge hasn't written it down precisely, the competitor gets the benefit of the doubt, therefore its worth protesting just in case and its only a quid to do so.

I personally think the £1 protest fee is no longer realistic, but at the same time, I would hate to see genuine protests not being presented because the competitor cant afford the fee, has anyone got a better idea for a protest fee.

I do like the idea of the video evidence being allowed, if selection is so important, then anything which helps Jurys to make well informed decisions should be allowed. Maybe a club should take this forward as a motion as its the only way it will be changed.

Is this an area where WCP can provide a solution, they all seem to have a video camera permanently attached.

Really looking forward to senior selection.

Mrs H · Post by **Mrs H** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:36 pm

Before slinging criticism around about an imotive subject such as this it is very important to be sure you have all of the facts and that the facts are also correct.

The jury were NOT influenced by any coach they merely did their job and looked firstly at the reasons for the out of time protest and secondly at the protest and made an impartial decision on the facts from the gate judge and the section judge.

It is totally unfair on the paddler concerned how this has been worded and on the jury who delt with the situation. If you want the sport to continue stop criticising the volunteers running it for you, threy are few and far between as it is, if you want them to continue respect them and value them.

Bill Denboro · Post by **Bill Denboro** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:41 pm

I know why the jury decided to look at the protest the second time and it still doesn't justify why the rules were broken. So would the jury still have considered the protest the second time if the protest was submitted 10mins late? 30mins? The rule says one hour, you cant argue with that.

As for criticising the volunteers running the sport I quote my friend 'guest' and say 'its getting old'. Whenever there is a controversial subject such as this, that is usually the answer.

Guest.... Like C1 mini said I filled in enough detail to give an account of the situation. If you happen to know the paddler in the question you must have realised that there was something odd about the jury's decision to change their verdict for it to stick with you.

If the jury want more respect Mrs H then they should implement the rules correctly. Not bend them as and when they chose.