Sounds to me like we're looking at this the wrong way. We don't insist on everybody in a swimming pool wearing inflatable armbands just in case they can't swim - we leave it down to the individual sense for people who can't swim to put them on. Let's just encourage people who can't roll (or can't roll in anger), who have just come up from Div 2 to 1 with no real river experience to have airbags. Many of these inexperienced paddlers won't have ever been told airbags exist, or indeed that Washburn has a nasty little wave. Let's go for education rather than legislation.
Personally I don't use airbags. I'm 6'2" and have size 12 feet I don't have enough space in the front and also because of that I don't wear shoes to paddle - my sandals live in the back! Also tempting fate somewhat I haven't swam since 1993. If it were compulsory I suspect I would never check the bags actually had any air in them hence making them useless (education not legislation...).
Yes things have got easier - I did my first roll "in anger" at Div5 (remember that?). Somebody now will tell me they did their first roll at Novice when there were forward and backward gates :;):
Airbags in boats at all UK event's
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
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Yep, Well it wasnt the first roll in anger, but I was rolling at novice events in K1 and C1, first C2 roll didnot happen till Div 1 - but it was an end cockpit C2! 
and yes I do mean Div1 1, not 1/Prem.
Yes there were forward and back, and inside and outside touches. Anyone roll with black gates (and who else knows about them!)
and yes I do mean Div1 1, not 1/Prem.Yes there were forward and back, and inside and outside touches. Anyone roll with black gates (and who else knows about them!)
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Some interesting point's form all angles, but the safety of all concerned should be paramount whether it be paddler or rescuer.
Just to put Dutch Geezers mind at rest when we borrowed his demo boat's we fitted air bags to them before we used them :p
You should not need to blow up the bags that hard that they put any pressure on the hull, remember hot air expands (as we covered earlier in this topic)
I think I would rather pay to fix a hole in the boat rather than for a new one because the rescue guy's (who I agree with) could not save it safely and it floated off to sea in many pieces.
Just to put Dutch Geezers mind at rest when we borrowed his demo boat's we fitted air bags to them before we used them :p
You should not need to blow up the bags that hard that they put any pressure on the hull, remember hot air expands (as we covered earlier in this topic)
I think I would rather pay to fix a hole in the boat rather than for a new one because the rescue guy's (who I agree with) could not save it safely and it floated off to sea in many pieces.
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
I always find "safety must be paramount" to be an odd statement, in any context. Surely if we wanted to be safe we wouldn't go canoeing? There's a line somewhere I just think that forcing people to use airbags is beyond it. Helmets and BA's can stay!
Personally on the off chance I go for a swim a risk I'll take is that a rescuer decides that they're not going to rescue my boat because it hasn't got airbags. I'd probably have my sandals digging me in the back or between my legs if there were airbags in my boat. Actually come to think of it if I swim then rescue my sandals!
Personally on the off chance I go for a swim a risk I'll take is that a rescuer decides that they're not going to rescue my boat because it hasn't got airbags. I'd probably have my sandals digging me in the back or between my legs if there were airbags in my boat. Actually come to think of it if I swim then rescue my sandals!
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Dutch Geezer
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Geebs you obviously feel very strongly about fitting airbags, good on you. No one is stopping anyone from fitting airbags to any boat which they paddle in any disciplne. But the people like you who support your view seem #### bent on making everyone else fit airbags to their boats.
Why can this not be left up to the individual to choose? and that includes the rescuer deciding on whether to rescue the boat or not, after all he is there to rescue the paddler, not his equipment.
This discussion has gone on for months now, why not let the BB users vote, ( should have asked for their Canoe Club just in case one club tries to influence the vote ) and then from that see how people feel.
I cant help but feel that if we keep harping on about airbags people will start to get the impression that Slalom is really dangerous and maybe the whole sport needs to be looked at with safety in mind, when in actual fact very few people get injured at Slalom and no one to the best of my knowledge in Britain has died.
The British rules are adapted from the ICF, they dont demand airbags. So I suppose the bottom line is that if you feel that strong, get your club, who I believe, already impose this rule on their members, to put it forward at the AGM.
It might even make a few more clubs attend the AGM.
By the way, nice thought about putting your bags in the demo boat but I am happy either way.
Why can this not be left up to the individual to choose? and that includes the rescuer deciding on whether to rescue the boat or not, after all he is there to rescue the paddler, not his equipment.
This discussion has gone on for months now, why not let the BB users vote, ( should have asked for their Canoe Club just in case one club tries to influence the vote ) and then from that see how people feel.
I cant help but feel that if we keep harping on about airbags people will start to get the impression that Slalom is really dangerous and maybe the whole sport needs to be looked at with safety in mind, when in actual fact very few people get injured at Slalom and no one to the best of my knowledge in Britain has died.
The British rules are adapted from the ICF, they dont demand airbags. So I suppose the bottom line is that if you feel that strong, get your club, who I believe, already impose this rule on their members, to put it forward at the AGM.
It might even make a few more clubs attend the AGM.
By the way, nice thought about putting your bags in the demo boat but I am happy either way.
Good luck with the poll, let's hope some more people express their opions :O
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
There has been one person that has died at a slalom event at llandysul a few years back when they were swept past the finish line during a university slalom championships.
I don't know the details but air bags would not have saved his life but a throwline may have done.
Education on all safety aspects has to be the answer - when i started canoeing I had the daft idea that air bags in the back of my huge volumed plastic boat was the reason I could not capsize the boat when trying to practice rolling. i thought they helped the boat to float when the right way up! Some of the posts on this thread don't seem to be any more enlightened.
I have ordered airbags for all our club slalom boats, simply to make my and other coaches job easier of emptying them - I'm sure in this compensation age a coach could claim that emptying a boat without air bags damaged their back.
ps I choose not to put airbags in my slalom boat as I am confident in rolling.
I don't know the details but air bags would not have saved his life but a throwline may have done.
Education on all safety aspects has to be the answer - when i started canoeing I had the daft idea that air bags in the back of my huge volumed plastic boat was the reason I could not capsize the boat when trying to practice rolling. i thought they helped the boat to float when the right way up! Some of the posts on this thread don't seem to be any more enlightened.
I have ordered airbags for all our club slalom boats, simply to make my and other coaches job easier of emptying them - I'm sure in this compensation age a coach could claim that emptying a boat without air bags damaged their back.
ps I choose not to put airbags in my slalom boat as I am confident in rolling.
There has been one person that has died at a slalom event at llandysul a few years back when they were swept past the finish line during a university slalom championships.
I don't know the details but air bags would not have saved his life but a throwline may have done.
It was a University of Wales race. I wasn't there that day but I did attend 3 (or 4) UW races at Llandysul and always thought it was an accident waiting to happen - lots of inexperienced paddlers on October water levels with not enough experienced paddlers about. I suspect he wouldn't have died if there was sufficient rescue cover provided at the bottom - probably just enforcing the 2 paddlers stay on rule would have done it (as I understand it from friends who were there).
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John Sturgess
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Gedling, Nottingham/Long Preston, North Yorkshire
I feel that there are two things missing from this strand:
1) One safety factor that I cannot see mentioned above: airbags help to prevent a boat either compressing on the paddler, preventing exit, or folding round a rock or a tree, even where the point of contact is level with the cockpit, i.e. where there is no airbag. I don't know why that works, but Plas Y Brenin ran tests a few years ago which confirmed it.
2) Various comments which suggest that if in Britain we made airbags compulsory we would be the only people doing it: our compensation culture etc
In fact in France it is the LAW (Arrete du 4 Mai 1995 relatif aux garanties de etchnique et de securite dans les etablissements organisant la pratique ou l'enseignement de la nage en eau vive, du canoe, du kayak, du raft ainsi que de la navigation a l'aide de toute autre embarcation propulsee a la pagaie, if you want to know)
This requires paddlers paddlers on rough water to wear CE-marked helmets and buoyancy aids, and 'closed' shoes, and to have fixed buoyancy which will float boat, paddler, and any equipment carried above the water even when the boat is full of water.
The FFCK's Slalom Rules therefore specify that paddlers at Regional, N3 and N2 levels should follow these rules; the capsized boat must float horizontally even when the padler uses it for support (i.e. climbs on it); it is specified that shoes must not have laces; bouyancy must be by means of airbags (reserves d'air) front and back or sealed compartments; buoyancy pillars/blocks are advised but do not replace air-bags. You are not even allowed a string to tie your sponge in in case it traps you!
Paddlers in N1 (VERY elite - only contains 3 or 4 last-year Juniors) have only to follow the ICF rules when racing at N1 level: but when racing at races which include the lower divisions they must follow the same regulations.
This law does not just apply to races and commercial instructional operations, nor just to Juniors: it applies very specifically to recognized training places (i.e. a lot of places Brits go to: Bourg St Maurice, L'Argentiere - la - Bessee, L'Isle - de - la - Serre, St. Pierre - de - Boeuf, etc) and to river trips.
And Coaches should be aware - as they may well be if they are skiers - that the gendamerie can get pretty rough - and that their preferred action is to arrest the offending Coach!
1) One safety factor that I cannot see mentioned above: airbags help to prevent a boat either compressing on the paddler, preventing exit, or folding round a rock or a tree, even where the point of contact is level with the cockpit, i.e. where there is no airbag. I don't know why that works, but Plas Y Brenin ran tests a few years ago which confirmed it.
2) Various comments which suggest that if in Britain we made airbags compulsory we would be the only people doing it: our compensation culture etc
In fact in France it is the LAW (Arrete du 4 Mai 1995 relatif aux garanties de etchnique et de securite dans les etablissements organisant la pratique ou l'enseignement de la nage en eau vive, du canoe, du kayak, du raft ainsi que de la navigation a l'aide de toute autre embarcation propulsee a la pagaie, if you want to know)
This requires paddlers paddlers on rough water to wear CE-marked helmets and buoyancy aids, and 'closed' shoes, and to have fixed buoyancy which will float boat, paddler, and any equipment carried above the water even when the boat is full of water.
The FFCK's Slalom Rules therefore specify that paddlers at Regional, N3 and N2 levels should follow these rules; the capsized boat must float horizontally even when the padler uses it for support (i.e. climbs on it); it is specified that shoes must not have laces; bouyancy must be by means of airbags (reserves d'air) front and back or sealed compartments; buoyancy pillars/blocks are advised but do not replace air-bags. You are not even allowed a string to tie your sponge in in case it traps you!
Paddlers in N1 (VERY elite - only contains 3 or 4 last-year Juniors) have only to follow the ICF rules when racing at N1 level: but when racing at races which include the lower divisions they must follow the same regulations.
This law does not just apply to races and commercial instructional operations, nor just to Juniors: it applies very specifically to recognized training places (i.e. a lot of places Brits go to: Bourg St Maurice, L'Argentiere - la - Bessee, L'Isle - de - la - Serre, St. Pierre - de - Boeuf, etc) and to river trips.
And Coaches should be aware - as they may well be if they are skiers - that the gendamerie can get pretty rough - and that their preferred action is to arrest the offending Coach!
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Dutch Geezer
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Ok John, dont sit on the fence, make it compulsory or leave it up to the individual, what would you do.
I went to L'argentierre for the first time a couple of years ago with an organised group and no one mentioned this being law and I have never seen any guidance from the BCU mentioning this either. I also never saw any notices stating these rules at the course. Hands up all those coaches still keen to take groups to France.
Most of it is common sense and I seem to remember that the guidelines for a capsized boat here is pretty much the same, something about sufficent bouyancy to make it unsinkable when full of water. Arrowcraft use to have a sticker saying you may have to add more buoyancy which they put on their boats.
I am not an expert, but there is only about 75cm on my short boat from the footrest to the bow and to try and get 2 small airbags into that area either side of the slab block would mean them being pretty small bags and just how effective they are going to be I think is debateable. I would be much more concerned about how secure the slab block is in the boat. A good slalom boat is pretty rigid when all the foam is secure, but considerably less so when its loose or missing. In fact the airbags do more to stop the slab moving if its loose.
I have seen a few WWR totally folded around rocks and even with airbags fitted there is such a large volume of water inside the boat that it cannot take the pressure and folds. Interesting point is where the paddler was still in the boat when it got pinned it was only when he popped the deck to get out that the boat folded completely.
I'm not saying that airbags wont save your boat, what I am saying is that if the BCU thought they were so important in the light of all the evidence, they would have mandated it in the rules and they haven't.
So again can we agree to leave it up to the individual to decide for himself rather than try and impose another rule which someone thinks is a good idea.
I went to L'argentierre for the first time a couple of years ago with an organised group and no one mentioned this being law and I have never seen any guidance from the BCU mentioning this either. I also never saw any notices stating these rules at the course. Hands up all those coaches still keen to take groups to France.
Most of it is common sense and I seem to remember that the guidelines for a capsized boat here is pretty much the same, something about sufficent bouyancy to make it unsinkable when full of water. Arrowcraft use to have a sticker saying you may have to add more buoyancy which they put on their boats.
I am not an expert, but there is only about 75cm on my short boat from the footrest to the bow and to try and get 2 small airbags into that area either side of the slab block would mean them being pretty small bags and just how effective they are going to be I think is debateable. I would be much more concerned about how secure the slab block is in the boat. A good slalom boat is pretty rigid when all the foam is secure, but considerably less so when its loose or missing. In fact the airbags do more to stop the slab moving if its loose.
I have seen a few WWR totally folded around rocks and even with airbags fitted there is such a large volume of water inside the boat that it cannot take the pressure and folds. Interesting point is where the paddler was still in the boat when it got pinned it was only when he popped the deck to get out that the boat folded completely.
I'm not saying that airbags wont save your boat, what I am saying is that if the BCU thought they were so important in the light of all the evidence, they would have mandated it in the rules and they haven't.
So again can we agree to leave it up to the individual to decide for himself rather than try and impose another rule which someone thinks is a good idea.