Sounds like it Dave and not a bad job either :;):
I think someone needs to talk to the BCU to see if they have a system in place that could handle the accounting side, I am sure with the growing resources at the BCU that is feasible and as you say the entry card could be printed off by the software.
The indemnity could be included in the bib applications at the start of the year which would be ideal as it would minimise the admin side as one form could be the bib application and indemnity in one.
Now it is my turn to back pedal, as I think also we need to be involing the Slasoft guy's to ask them if it is feasible.
But it would be nice to start the new year off with a system, whether it would be practical is another matter.
Entries over the internet - Enter events online
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
That's all good input folks. I've written most of the texty bit and hope to get some time early next week to write some of the more techy bit to do with data exchange.
Entry cards - once we're beyond the point of needing them for entries then we can create more appropriate bits of paper for the other jobs they do which I see as
1) Temporary holding area for control to write penalties on before input into the computer.
2) Display to competitors of where penalties occurred - much better done in a grid so you can compare with others.
Slasoft is obviously the most used system but I wouldn't want to do anything centrally with entries that forced people to use that system - that wouldn't exactly be in the spirit of competiton. I would advocate publishing of the data standard required for entries and results and whichever software vendors wanted to implement that standard could do so. Obviously anyone who doesn't isn't going to sell many copies! I wouldn't see it as much work for anybody who has already written a Slalom results system to write an import of entries and an export of results to match the new standard, and to eventually write printing routines for the above entry card "replacements".
Entry cards - once we're beyond the point of needing them for entries then we can create more appropriate bits of paper for the other jobs they do which I see as
1) Temporary holding area for control to write penalties on before input into the computer.
2) Display to competitors of where penalties occurred - much better done in a grid so you can compare with others.
Slasoft is obviously the most used system but I wouldn't want to do anything centrally with entries that forced people to use that system - that wouldn't exactly be in the spirit of competiton. I would advocate publishing of the data standard required for entries and results and whichever software vendors wanted to implement that standard could do so. Obviously anyone who doesn't isn't going to sell many copies! I wouldn't see it as much work for anybody who has already written a Slalom results system to write an import of entries and an export of results to match the new standard, and to eventually write printing routines for the above entry card "replacements".
Perhaps the timing is right (pardon the pun) to make sure we have a standard system in place for all event's, then everyone could have an understanding of how the systems work.
I think it would be nice to have consultation with existing timing/results suppliers such as Mikrotime and Slasoft to see if their systems could be integrated into a total package unless the decision is to have a complete new system tailor made to do what organisers require.
Sorry more food for thought!
I think it would be nice to have consultation with existing timing/results suppliers such as Mikrotime and Slasoft to see if their systems could be integrated into a total package unless the decision is to have a complete new system tailor made to do what organisers require.
Sorry more food for thought!
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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SEOFW Man
A very nice idea but the cost for a sport that has less than 5,000 paddlers is prohibitive. £10,000 +
Of course it could be developed on a voluntary basis but then you get the problem of continuing support and update.
The method I would use for payment is Paypal - very simple to use and charges on a percentage basis rather than a large fixed one.
The sport of Canoe Slalom still uses BBC B computers for Timing and Results - perhaps they should be updated first before the supply of old one dries up! They are 20 years old now and should have been retired years ago.
Let's get the basic technical support of the sport into shape before we put in place expensive ideas that only a few paddlers are likely to use!
Re the comment about Slasoft - whilst I make a charge for a copy of the Slalom Event Oorganiser I am basically an old volunteer still carrying on. There will never be an integrated package as I do not support Timing and until the sport looks at sensible solutions to replace the beams (Transducers as used in Athletics and cycling are the dream) there will not be a version of the Slalom Event Organiser with a Timing module.
I draw my penion next month so will be looking for someone to take over from me or, as I think would be best, to write a new package.
On the bright side - there will be a function in V2006 of the Slalom Event Organiser to email results, web pages and dignostic information from within the Slalom Event Organiser due early next year. The test code is written - all I have to do is integrate it whilst maintaining the integrity of the current program.
Tony A
Any Offers
Of course it could be developed on a voluntary basis but then you get the problem of continuing support and update.
The method I would use for payment is Paypal - very simple to use and charges on a percentage basis rather than a large fixed one.
The sport of Canoe Slalom still uses BBC B computers for Timing and Results - perhaps they should be updated first before the supply of old one dries up! They are 20 years old now and should have been retired years ago.
Let's get the basic technical support of the sport into shape before we put in place expensive ideas that only a few paddlers are likely to use!
Re the comment about Slasoft - whilst I make a charge for a copy of the Slalom Event Oorganiser I am basically an old volunteer still carrying on. There will never be an integrated package as I do not support Timing and until the sport looks at sensible solutions to replace the beams (Transducers as used in Athletics and cycling are the dream) there will not be a version of the Slalom Event Organiser with a Timing module.
I draw my penion next month so will be looking for someone to take over from me or, as I think would be best, to write a new package.
On the bright side - there will be a function in V2006 of the Slalom Event Organiser to email results, web pages and dignostic information from within the Slalom Event Organiser due early next year. The test code is written - all I have to do is integrate it whilst maintaining the integrity of the current program.
Tony A
Any Offers
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Duncan Berriman
Hi,
Just some thougts on the proposal.
Nene slalom accepted entries over the web with payment on the day. It worked well except there was a slight issue with the data loading. It appeared to lose the age. Other than that it worked well. The organisers filled in the cards. I think they had about 60 entries via the net so it just shows it works.
I think it would mean a lot less entries on the day as you could accept entries up to the day before without too many problems.
I guess another advantage is you should be able to load the data straight in saving on keying in time (and reading peoples hand writing). I think they did this at Nene.
If it was operated like Nene then there is no need to have a unique number as you just use your bib number and enter details as required. If it were a central system then you could use for instance your email address to identify yourself and prepopulate your entry making changes were required if you get promoted.
Don't see any issue re the disclaimer as long as it is displayed and a field filled in (as it was done at Nene). At the end of the day you don't watch the parent sign the entry card or check it so in effect its much the same. Anyone could sign it.
Most printers would print an entry card so a simple mail merge using word would probably get round the problem of filling in the cards manually (it might be a bit of a fiddle). Perhaps this could be improved with a redesign next time a print run is done so that the card is filled in vertically on both sides. This would make it much easier to print.
The cheapest payment system I have seen is nochex 2.6% plus 20p and no annual charges. But its still a lot to lose overall as many slaloms run at little profit as it is. I guess there could be a charge to cover this afterall you are saving 2 stamps and 2 envelopes plus a trip to the post box!
Biggest thing I can say based on 20years+ in IT is 'keep it simple' by which I mean simple systems work and don't try to run before you can walk.
Perhaps the first step is to modify the rule book to say that entries can be accepted by email or a web site if the club offers such a facility and take it from there. I'd then suggest people operate a simple like Nene did with payment on the day.
Failure to pay if you decide not to go would be treated the same as a bounced cheque which is already catered for in the rule book.
Once enough people are entering this way you could look at a website to do it. Again nothing much complicated just allowing you to register your details, pick the slalom to enter, modify any details which are incorrect with a facility for the organiser to download the details as and when required.
Perhaps Nene could share their experiences with us. There is nothing like feedback from the coal face.
Duncan
Just some thougts on the proposal.
Nene slalom accepted entries over the web with payment on the day. It worked well except there was a slight issue with the data loading. It appeared to lose the age. Other than that it worked well. The organisers filled in the cards. I think they had about 60 entries via the net so it just shows it works.
I think it would mean a lot less entries on the day as you could accept entries up to the day before without too many problems.
I guess another advantage is you should be able to load the data straight in saving on keying in time (and reading peoples hand writing). I think they did this at Nene.
If it was operated like Nene then there is no need to have a unique number as you just use your bib number and enter details as required. If it were a central system then you could use for instance your email address to identify yourself and prepopulate your entry making changes were required if you get promoted.
Don't see any issue re the disclaimer as long as it is displayed and a field filled in (as it was done at Nene). At the end of the day you don't watch the parent sign the entry card or check it so in effect its much the same. Anyone could sign it.
Most printers would print an entry card so a simple mail merge using word would probably get round the problem of filling in the cards manually (it might be a bit of a fiddle). Perhaps this could be improved with a redesign next time a print run is done so that the card is filled in vertically on both sides. This would make it much easier to print.
The cheapest payment system I have seen is nochex 2.6% plus 20p and no annual charges. But its still a lot to lose overall as many slaloms run at little profit as it is. I guess there could be a charge to cover this afterall you are saving 2 stamps and 2 envelopes plus a trip to the post box!
Biggest thing I can say based on 20years+ in IT is 'keep it simple' by which I mean simple systems work and don't try to run before you can walk.
Perhaps the first step is to modify the rule book to say that entries can be accepted by email or a web site if the club offers such a facility and take it from there. I'd then suggest people operate a simple like Nene did with payment on the day.
Failure to pay if you decide not to go would be treated the same as a bounced cheque which is already catered for in the rule book.
Once enough people are entering this way you could look at a website to do it. Again nothing much complicated just allowing you to register your details, pick the slalom to enter, modify any details which are incorrect with a facility for the organiser to download the details as and when required.
Perhaps Nene could share their experiences with us. There is nothing like feedback from the coal face.
Duncan
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Dave Royle
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:02 pm
I certainly would not recommend accepting entries by email unless we get rid of the current entry card which has far too much info on it and also duplicates info unnecessarily. I would not want to fill all that in for everyone.
All that is needed on the card is class, division and number.
As for the disclaimer, why don't we sign that when we apply for the bib instead of being chased for it at every race?
Entries should be taken by a centralised system and the list of entries passed to the organiser for compilation into the start list. The payment system should divert the levies to BCU and the rest to the club (maybe a part could be retained until results were published and other paperwork complete)
The unique identifier used by the French system is the FFCK membership number. For us that would be the BCU number.
I don't know who thought that start lists and results lists should be email based. They should be web based. Available to download if you want.
All that is needed on the card is class, division and number.
As for the disclaimer, why don't we sign that when we apply for the bib instead of being chased for it at every race?
Entries should be taken by a centralised system and the list of entries passed to the organiser for compilation into the start list. The payment system should divert the levies to BCU and the rest to the club (maybe a part could be retained until results were published and other paperwork complete)
The unique identifier used by the French system is the FFCK membership number. For us that would be the BCU number.
I don't know who thought that start lists and results lists should be email based. They should be web based. Available to download if you want.
Dave - we are thinking much the same way.
Personally I don't see the cost for developing things centrally as being that high. It's not like we're trying to develop something that launches rockets into space! The first question I have is how has the Canoe England login been developed/funded? This gives us a big chunk of the info we need. Even if we had to start from scratch I'm sure a few of my contacts would do a good professional job of the initial steps for way less than 10k. I'm sure if you got HP or somebody in it would cost way more! I do 100% agree that we should keep things simple though, and do things step by step. For it to achieve the desired results it probably does need to be looked after professionally though. Downtime while sombody's on holiday obviously reduces confidence!
I see it as the biggest plus for internet entries is that lazy paddlers who can't be bothered to dig out an envelope and a stamp and trudge to the postbox in the rain will still enter on time, rather than turning up on the day. Therefore I think this should be the first step. Initially if no software can take the import data and the entries have to be keyed manually we're still a step ahead by getting more pre-entries. Entry cards can also be replaced into the future - in the mean time I don't think the paddler filling one in on the day (fully if necessary) is too much to ask. Asking the organising club to fill them all in would be too much I agree. An initial note (in big writing) on the internet entry screen informing the paddler(s) that he/she/they must fill in an entry card at control should do it.
BCU membership number should be used for a login. This is slightly complicated by two facts:
1) First there is WCA, SCA, CANI which maintain their own numbers, plus there's Div 4s who probably haven't got membership but I guess most of these will always be EOD.
2) C2 - two crew members = two BCU numbers. The same would also go for team events if there ever are any.
I don't see these as showstoppers however - just small hurdles. I don't think we should bib number as a login/reference because it'll get messy with promotions and it'll mean lots of admin work to punch in all the data again at year end.
I don't see the disclaimer as a big hurdle. We DO sign our lives away when we apply for the bib so it's perhaps overkill to do it on the cards as well. However it's not a problem to electronically waiver things with a bit of legal advice.
I'm going to try and stay out of the argument about software at the other end. I have to say Slasoft is very very cheap and I'd charge more than that even at "volunteer" prices! I really do see this as a choice for the organiser and a market place that other players can come in to, particularly if Tony's going to enjoy a well earned retirement. I've never been involved in looking at budgets for slalom but I have in an other sport (where participation is nearly as low and entry fees are lower), and there's normally scope for a few hundred pounds for some software that makes people's life easier. You never know I may get round to writing one one day
Personally I don't see the cost for developing things centrally as being that high. It's not like we're trying to develop something that launches rockets into space! The first question I have is how has the Canoe England login been developed/funded? This gives us a big chunk of the info we need. Even if we had to start from scratch I'm sure a few of my contacts would do a good professional job of the initial steps for way less than 10k. I'm sure if you got HP or somebody in it would cost way more! I do 100% agree that we should keep things simple though, and do things step by step. For it to achieve the desired results it probably does need to be looked after professionally though. Downtime while sombody's on holiday obviously reduces confidence!
I see it as the biggest plus for internet entries is that lazy paddlers who can't be bothered to dig out an envelope and a stamp and trudge to the postbox in the rain will still enter on time, rather than turning up on the day. Therefore I think this should be the first step. Initially if no software can take the import data and the entries have to be keyed manually we're still a step ahead by getting more pre-entries. Entry cards can also be replaced into the future - in the mean time I don't think the paddler filling one in on the day (fully if necessary) is too much to ask. Asking the organising club to fill them all in would be too much I agree. An initial note (in big writing) on the internet entry screen informing the paddler(s) that he/she/they must fill in an entry card at control should do it.
BCU membership number should be used for a login. This is slightly complicated by two facts:
1) First there is WCA, SCA, CANI which maintain their own numbers, plus there's Div 4s who probably haven't got membership but I guess most of these will always be EOD.
2) C2 - two crew members = two BCU numbers. The same would also go for team events if there ever are any.
I don't see these as showstoppers however - just small hurdles. I don't think we should bib number as a login/reference because it'll get messy with promotions and it'll mean lots of admin work to punch in all the data again at year end.
I don't see the disclaimer as a big hurdle. We DO sign our lives away when we apply for the bib so it's perhaps overkill to do it on the cards as well. However it's not a problem to electronically waiver things with a bit of legal advice.
I'm going to try and stay out of the argument about software at the other end. I have to say Slasoft is very very cheap and I'd charge more than that even at "volunteer" prices! I really do see this as a choice for the organiser and a market place that other players can come in to, particularly if Tony's going to enjoy a well earned retirement. I've never been involved in looking at budgets for slalom but I have in an other sport (where participation is nearly as low and entry fees are lower), and there's normally scope for a few hundred pounds for some software that makes people's life easier. You never know I may get round to writing one one day
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JohnE
Orienteering has already adopted this approach, at least for large events. However, they are talking about hundreds of competitors per event, not dozens. Try talking to MDOC (Manchester & District Orienteering Club) and/or Fabian4 in South Wales, who both have facilities for this. They link (or have downloaded into them) the BOF (British Orienteering Federation) database, and once you enter your BOF (cf. BCU/SCA/WCA/CANI etc.) number your name & address is pre-populated. I suspect that numbers is the big issue.
N.B. I do not think this technology should be used as a justification for allowing/expecting everyone to enter just a day or so in advance. The organiser's job in all sports is hard enough without having little idea of numbers until the last minute - remember they are all volunteers. If you want an appropriate number of engraved prizes the organiser needs time to arrange this once he knows what numbers he's dealing with.
I think for seniors the risk/liability issue can be handled by an on-line tickbox, but I think you would still need a signature on behalf of juniors on the day.
N.B. I do not think this technology should be used as a justification for allowing/expecting everyone to enter just a day or so in advance. The organiser's job in all sports is hard enough without having little idea of numbers until the last minute - remember they are all volunteers. If you want an appropriate number of engraved prizes the organiser needs time to arrange this once he knows what numbers he's dealing with.
I think for seniors the risk/liability issue can be handled by an on-line tickbox, but I think you would still need a signature on behalf of juniors on the day.
John - I'm an orienteer as well and while online entry is available through various clubs it is not done centrally and feel very strongly that this is a mistake on the part of BOF (British Orienteering Federation) for not getting involved.
While there is an international standard for data transfer in orienteering none of the club's own online entry systems use it therefore they are no good for co-ordinating results or rankings.
Collectively they could well have cost all the organising clubs more than doing a proper job centrally then charging this out over time through the event levys. Also while the Fabian 4 system (professionally run) is quite good the MDOC system is quite frankly rubbish and in my opinion breaks quite a few laws to do with data protection and handling of credit card numbers, and is throughly insecure.
It's the example of how BOF hasn't got involved that makes me want to make sure that BCU/Slalom committee don't get drawn into all the same problems.
Rant over :O
While there is an international standard for data transfer in orienteering none of the club's own online entry systems use it therefore they are no good for co-ordinating results or rankings.
Collectively they could well have cost all the organising clubs more than doing a proper job centrally then charging this out over time through the event levys. Also while the Fabian 4 system (professionally run) is quite good the MDOC system is quite frankly rubbish and in my opinion breaks quite a few laws to do with data protection and handling of credit card numbers, and is throughly insecure.
It's the example of how BOF hasn't got involved that makes me want to make sure that BCU/Slalom committee don't get drawn into all the same problems.
Rant over :O
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John Sturgess
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Gedling, Nottingham/Long Preston, North Yorkshire
I discussed this question recently with Hilary Palmer, Development Manager BOF: my understanding is that lower-level Orienteering events simply do not have pre-entry: all entries taken on the day. Should we not at least consider this (the same applies to lower-level mountain-biking, I think you will find - and certainly to BOFRA fell-races)
Hi all,
Quite an interesting discussion - on a subject that I have given some thought to before.
After our race earlier this year, we had a meeting to discuss what could be improved for next year. The biggest area identified was the time taken to get information from entry cards into SlaSoft, which meant we were running about 40 mins late before the event had even started. I was asked to look into solutions to overcome the problem, and the only solution i could come up with was having a completely different system in place that could:
1. Facilitate online entries
2. Produce start lists
3. Allow for people running control to input penalty and time info for each competitor.
4. Produce results lists
This would effectively mean one complete, integral system that looked after the entire process from entry to results.
Obviously this has some logistical complications - where is the data held, how can clubs have access to the information at race venues, how are entries paid for (direct to BCU, or to the club) etc.
At the time, I briefly drew up a specification, but with other projects on the go, I never got around to building anything. This thread resparked my imagination so i have just spent the last few hours writing a very basic model of what I thought may be a starting point for a solution.
Online Slalom Entry System
A full commercial system would probably cost around £5000 to develop.
Existing solutions that could be used for reference would be those used at Bratislava and Penrith.
Hope this helps!
Ryan
Quite an interesting discussion - on a subject that I have given some thought to before.
After our race earlier this year, we had a meeting to discuss what could be improved for next year. The biggest area identified was the time taken to get information from entry cards into SlaSoft, which meant we were running about 40 mins late before the event had even started. I was asked to look into solutions to overcome the problem, and the only solution i could come up with was having a completely different system in place that could:
1. Facilitate online entries
2. Produce start lists
3. Allow for people running control to input penalty and time info for each competitor.
4. Produce results lists
This would effectively mean one complete, integral system that looked after the entire process from entry to results.
Obviously this has some logistical complications - where is the data held, how can clubs have access to the information at race venues, how are entries paid for (direct to BCU, or to the club) etc.
At the time, I briefly drew up a specification, but with other projects on the go, I never got around to building anything. This thread resparked my imagination so i have just spent the last few hours writing a very basic model of what I thought may be a starting point for a solution.
Online Slalom Entry System
A full commercial system would probably cost around £5000 to develop.
Existing solutions that could be used for reference would be those used at Bratislava and Penrith.
Hope this helps!
Ryan
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Chip
KISS and it work's, well done Ryan the entry side works fine and the information listed would be a great help to the paddler, confirming entry details for events and obtaining a start list.
As you say a bit (lot) more work to integrate it into a full system for cards etc. but a good base to work from
As you say a bit (lot) more work to integrate it into a full system for cards etc. but a good base to work from
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching