Competition review - Changes in the competition structure

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Anne
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Post by Anne » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:19 pm

Points used to be given for an officials competition and in the old days there was an end of year prize for the person with the most points. Perhaps that could be re introduced, but it does mean someone volunteering to compile these results.

katonas
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Post by katonas » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:21 pm

Anne wrote:Points used to be given for an officials competition and in the old days there was an end of year prize for the person with the most points.
As an average div2 paddler a separate judges competition does not provide any incentive for me to travel to, and judge in higher division races.

If the current ranking compilers /organisers can cope with awarding points to C1/C2 when compared to winning K1 times, I see no reason why they can't do the same between K1 divisions.

eg. div3 judges at a div2 event
div2 judges at a div1 event
div1 judges at a prem event.

The ease of attaining points could be altered depending on the response, keeping numbers at a manageable level. I don't think a 'bonus' point system suggested by MWilk would be viewed as fair by all, and points/promotions should be related to performance on the water.

I also believe that points in lower divisions in normal races, should be awarded in a similar way, with comparisons made to a time that a prem paddler would attain. The present situation is laughable, with a huge difference in standard between those promoted at the beginning, compared to those at the end of the season. For example, paddlers who won div 3 races at the start of the season are all doing well in div1 now, whilst those at the end are struggling in div2. At the moment most paddlers will attain their best points at the end of the season, even if they paddle slower. It is demoralising for both those competing at the start of a season, and those promoted at the end, only to struggle the following year.

At the same time, I can see why the current system motivates new paddlers, because they will achieve higher points as the season moves on, creating an illusion that they're improving faster than they think. The trouble is, the higher you climb, the further you fall. You can't replace standards that people respect, and a bit of realism.

Regarding demotions, if someone had to attain an average of eg. 200 points for each race (ie.600 for div2 and 1000 for div1), demotion should also be prevented by a single good result eg.450 points to prevent good paddlers who paddle infrequently from bobbing unnecessarily between divisions.

Sorry to prattle on. :;):

John Sturgess
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Post by John Sturgess » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:53 pm

I'm sorry, but I do not recognise the picture above - either from observing what happens in my club (quite a big sample - over 70 paddlers racing this year, including 49 Juniors, and in every division and evry class); or from obervations at events I attend; or from a study of the results.

[/quote]'The present situation is laughable, with a huge difference in standard between those promoted at the beginning, compared to those at the end of the season. For example, paddlers who won div 3 races at the start of the season are all doing well in div1 now, whilst those at the end are struggling in div2. At the moment most paddlers will attain their best points at the end of the season, even if they paddle slower'

One or two adults may be struggling in Div 2 - recently promoted Juniors certainly aren't. At Llandysul recent promotions (Bibs181+) averaged almost exactly the same as early season promotions (Bibs 141-180). Both groups heavily outscored those 'left over' from last year. And in all groups Juniors (Under-16 and younger) outscored U18's and adults.
It really isn't meaningful looking at groups in terms of early and late promotions; the key difference is between young children and adults/near adults: or put differently, the issue is not where they have come from, but where they are going. 'Children are not just small adults'.

Moderately talented children starting at 11/12 paddling in strong Clubs with good coaching structures go from Div4 to Div 1 in two seasons; highly talented children from the same background get to Prem in the same time. The children who get to Div 1 in time to get 5 races in feature in the top 25% of that Division; children who get into Prem do not finish at the bottom of that Division. This partly because they are children (see below); and partly because they do in one season as many races as some paddlers do in 5 seasons!

If we slow down their progression we will be damaging them. Learning to handle rough water (slalom; freestyle; sailing) is the same as learning to handle being in the air (diving; gymnastics; trampolining); learning to handle being in/under water (swimming); and being on big strong animals (riding). All are kinaesthetic motor-skills based - Physical Literacy; and children who do not master Physical Literacy by the start of the major growth spurt never reach their genetic potential, however good they get (how much better would David Beckham be if, like Jony Wilkinson, he could kick equally well with both feet). That is the core of Long-Term Athlete Development.

Which is why none of the 4/5 major Slalom Nations (apart from France to a limited extent) use their ranking systems to deliberately slow down children's progression. See paper on the Competitions Review section of the canoeslalom website.

And how is it possible to say that a child is not ready to race in Division 1 as a competitor but is ready to race the same course as a Judge (after sitting freezing his ********'s off on the bank at Grandtully for 2 hours)?

katonas
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Post by katonas » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:04 pm

John Sturgess wrote:One or two adults may be struggling in Div 2 - recently promoted Juniors certainly aren't.

Of course they're not struggling, division 2 is a shadow of what it was at the start of the season.

Comparing paddlers in say div2 to a 'gold standard' prem paddlers time, could in some events lead to more promotions if lots of good paddlers attended (Speeding promotion!-I agree with you about not holding paddlers back). In others events however, less would be promoted, but at least it would remove the lottery of promotion based on who turns up on the day. Its only an idea for discussion. For div 2 you can't ignor the number of good paddlers who get promoted to div1 during the year leaving a weakened field, and the influx of div1 demotions at the start of the year, many of whom just didn't get around to paddling much the previous year.

I can think of one very good paddler who won his first 2 div 3 races in times that also would have won the div 2 races on the same day. Paddlers like this need to be allowed to be 'fast tracked' up the divisions, so they don't hold up other youngsters worthy of promotion.

Suppose you had to achieve a time under ?115% of a good prem paddlers time 2-3 times to be promoted to div 1, and ?105% to prem. Young paddlers could view their progression in a much more scientific way, and have a clear idea of where they are heading. People who do not stand a chance of promotion could still set a target for themselves eg. 125%. A really talented young div1 paddler who has trained over the winter, who beats the prem paddlers time could be promoted in a single race perhaps...If a div1 paddler fails to achieve a time under ?115% all year this could be grounds for demotion to div 2. The paddler in the paragraph above would be promoted from div 3 to div 1, missing out div 2 altogether.

Nick Penfold
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Post by Nick Penfold » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:01 pm

At the end of this week we intend to take stock of all the feedback, both here on the bulletin board and from other sources, and get some proposals in place.
So last input, please!

Nick

Mick h
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Post by Mick h » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:37 pm

After 23 years of slalom last weekend could have been my last race if some of the rule changes go through. The question you may ask is why? I believe the powers that be may have missed the point what this sport is about because I know some of the paddlers have. I will spell it out for you who fall into this catagory FUN, PLEASURE, ENJOYMENT.
A large percentage of paddlers do the sport for the reasons stated above. There are also a good number of paddlers whose only opportunity to paddle descent water is at races and thats there motivation for competeing.
If either of the proposals of removing free practice or adding both runs together in Div 1 go through it will not benefit the sport. Adding both runs together will develop the mentality in paddlers not to take risks and they will paddle conservatively to guarentee a good result.
Also is the sport value for money? Four and a half minutes canoeing on average probably £80 for the weekend ,fuel entry camping etc restrict water time and the question raised is it worth it?

Shelly
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Post by Shelly » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:49 am

I can't comment on the top end of the divisions as I only started paddling K1 in July this year. From my limited experience I think it can be too easy to move from Div 4 to Div 3 and am concerned that it could be too easy to move to Div 2.

I was promoted to Div 3 on the Sunday at the Nene after the much better paddler was promoted on the Saturday (she is now in Div 1 so I really mean much better!). Other than slaloms I have no experience on moving water so found even the Nene a bit intimidating. I wonder if I would have been better off in a points system (like Div 3 to 2) so that I could have had more paddling experience before moving up.

Now in Div 3 I am doing okay, but have been mentally "planning" which events to enter etc. to ensure that I get experience without the "fear" of promotion (difficult to do when you don't know who will be entering though!). I would like to stay where I am for at least the start of next season as my times/ experience would leave me lagging at the bottom of Div 2 for some time if I were to go up.

My limited experience in the C2 would also suggest that points from Div 4 to 3 would help. I have been promoted to Div 2/3 with one C2 partner after one race (Cardington - we had never paddled together) whereas am still in Div 4 with another partner. The partner I am in Div 4 with and I are a faster team and have being doing pretty well together but could not paddle that one event. With points I think it would be the other way around...

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Pingu
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Post by Pingu » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:09 pm

Mick h wrote:After 23 years of slalom last weekend could have been my last race if some of the rule changes go through. The question you may ask is why? I believe the powers that be may have missed the point what this sport is about because I know some of the paddlers have. I will spell it out for you who fall into this catagory FUN, PLEASURE, ENJOYMENT.

[Powers that be alert!] !!!! [Powers that be alert!/]

Mick. There are no "Powers that Be" in Slalom. How do you think the rules of our sport get changed? After 23 years in the sport, I would have thought you would have known.

The Committee are elected by the representatives of the active slalom clubs at the Annual Consultative Meeting. They have the power to bring in rule changes that have discussed and approved by the meeting, where they affect the running of domestic competition.

The Competition Review is being discussed to obtain views on suggested rule changes, to give everyone the opportunity to influence the debate.

Your views will be taken on board. By the way, very few paddlers took the opportunity to have free practice before the Div 1, last Saturday. (When there was plenty of water time in the hour before official practice started).

I am also primarily after fun, pleasure and enjoyment (but together with tha added adrenaline of the competition element).

Please don't retire. I'm sure that you will enjoy it just as much in 2007 ...... and you're a long time dead!!
Out of Darkness cometh Light

quaker
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Post by quaker » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:57 pm

Blinkers Alert.... Blinkers Alert

I think what "Mick h" is refering to is the indirect inputs into the rule changes that seem to occur. Namely the suggestions and tweaks that don't come from the AGM or Slalom clubs but from some specific individuals.

Incidentally if someone is not a member of a slalom club how does there view or vote get registered and what is the weighting on their opinion?

I think that the main item that needs addressing is the cost benefit of competing. I read somewhere that I could compete in a UK motor racing event for 450quid... that would give me around 1.5 hours in a supplied car, or around 5 quid per minute. Taking a like-for-like view 15 quid for a 4 minute competition (top lot are usualy around 3minutes) comes close to the same cost.

My opinion is that we do need to cut costs, and put more water time into an event.

Mick h
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Post by Mick h » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:03 pm

Pingu
I am not knocking the slalom committee in general I think they do a very good job. But the focus of slalom as been for many years and still is on the development of potential future champions this is due to the way the sport is funded. The problem is the majority of people who race will never be Albert Kerr, Richard Fox, Paul Radcliffe Campbell Walsh or Liz Sharman. Why add both runs together in Div1 most of us will never represent our country.

Unfortunately I did not get out of bed early enough to enjoy the use of the water on Saturday morning. If I had have done I would have probably done another 3 runs.

Quaker I do believe you have missed my point in your ramblings. I am not objecting to the cost. I get pleasure from being on the water. We have seen cause lengths shortened by half to make the sport more tv friendly which has work fantastically (1 hours coverage every 12months if we are lucky). Just let us get on the water and paddle if the time is available thats is all I am asking.

Anne
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Post by Anne » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:55 pm

I hear what you say Mick and take note. I am more and more seeing Div 1 competitions as not just a division for those aspiring to be champions to gain experience on their way to prem but also as a division where there is a cohort of paddlers who enjoy the experience of paddling and competing. I am also strongly advocating bringing team comptitions back at all levels. We are hot good at team rund internationally, i think pqrtly due to lack of paractice, but it also gives everyone 2 more runs down the course under race conditions.

all these ideas will be looked at and put forward at the ACM. Keep paddling Mick, we need more like you!

Dee
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Post by Dee » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:02 pm

In many ways I find it strange that restructuring of events and competitions is being discussed now, just when the numbers have started to rise. Look at the trends - yes, numbers have been sinking for years, but in the last two years they have been on the up. I think that there is a real danger that making too many changes could actually halt the new trend.

I do not think we should be reducing the numbers of slaloms at any level. In fact I think we should be increasing numbers of events (particularly in the more barren areas of the country), and encouraging clubs to return to old sites,

I do think we should be looking very carefully at div 2/3/4 slaloms and ask why they are across 3 divisions.

An example is Shepperton, where our autumn slalom used to be a div 2/3. One year the water was low and a large group of div 4 paddlers turned up to race think it was a div 4 and we thought "why not?". Since then we've had 2/3/4 competition. This year there was a bit more water so we ended up with some "non-div 4 gates".

I've also noticed that the Llandysul summer event used to be a 3/4 and is now at 2/3/4. I wonder if this is because they had to cancel a few years back because the water was too high.

It is rare that an event is truly suitable for 3 divisions but we stretch a point to give organisers a chance. With the easy communication provided by the Internet, why not allow clubs to propose div 2/3/4s with a "subject to water" clause so that they can either cancel the 2 bit or the 4 bit as appropriate.

Indeed perhaps with todays communications we could put more flexibility in the calendar, eg allow an event to be rescheduled if water levels aren't suitable at the planned time.

Lets keep lots of events and keep the numbers growing to fill them.

D

PS Shelly, congrats on promotion at the Nene. The Nene is one of the harder (even the hardest) div 4s around so you did really well.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

FatBoy
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Post by FatBoy » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:04 pm

I am a div 1, and fall into the enjoyment category, rather than the en route to Prem category. However my enjoyment, like probably most of my "cohorts", is to test myself against the course, and indeed the competition. If I wanted to do some gates and not compete then I would do that (which I do), but I go to slaloms and pay my cash because I also do enjoy competing. I don't think you'll find many people who go to slaloms not to compete.

Personally I think aggregate runs would improve Div 1. The rules have changed from 5s to 2s per touch which has improved the spectacle and the enjoyment because you can take more risks around the poles, but the aggregate runs has balanced things the other way a bit - you can't afford to take so many risks you get 50's. Watch a top Div 1 paddler at a Div 1 race and look at the unbelievable risks they are taking on some gates - indeed check through results this year and you'll see quite a few top paddlers with a 50 on their non-counting run.

Team runs - yes I think as a competitive nation we should practise more, but personally they aren't what I want at a Div 1. Perhaps a classic case of introducing something for the development of the international paddler, not for your average enjoyment paddler. I certainly will be against them if the proposal is to go back to the old format Div 1's of Saturday practice and team runs, Sunday race runs. I and many of my "cohorts" can't afford both days of a weekend - we have more mundane tasks like painting the spare room to do. 2 days for effectively 2 race runs is not what we want. Perhaps proof of the pudding is look at the Washburn Double Div 1 this year where there were team runs - 122 boats in Div 1 on Saturday there and only 8 teams competed of which I know some were judges. Sunday only 5 teams.

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fison
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Post by fison » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:28 pm

well just a point of raceing but it has changed in the last 10 years it is massive. Very short courses now you never here of a 100 meter runner going up to say the marathon and the other way round like. Well all the courses are now getting under 100 secounds for the telly i geuss but back in the old days we got plenty of coverage of canoeing ie paddles up on world of sport when Fox was raceing. My point is it is now a totally different sport in the way of a sprint and if you hit a gate now only 2 sec pentaly and the old 5 sec made the paddle think more as to where you had to out your boat. so i stll belive that best run counts and 5 secounds penatly should be around :)
lets get it on

Dave Royle
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Post by Dave Royle » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:33 pm

First of all, whether we like it or not, Canoe Slalom is aggregate and 2s penalties. The ICF have made it that way. Most other countries have been paddling with these rules since they first came out and their precious youngsters emerge unscathed from the process to give us Brits a good pasting whenever they can. After all, they have known nothing different. If you don’t believe me, come to the Stone Mini Slaloms. The kids love it just the same (if not more) and they have been aggregate for the last twenty years.

As far as water time and value for money are concerned, the reasoning for a paddler taking part in slalom probably falls in to two camps.

There are those who treat it as an exam and prepare through most of the year and wish to maximise their performance for a few races each season. The race is a measurement of the success of their training and preparation. Value for money is irrelevant. The faster they go the less time on the water they have. But that’s the point. If schools had SATS all year round, would the kids get better results. I don’t think so.

There are those who come to slalom for a good time, to paddle lots of water, have a bit of a social and get some points which will hopefully improve their ranking for next year. These guys also often contribute to the event too by helping out etc. They certainly contribute by putting their hands in their pocket. They also contribute by making it harder for the rapid improvers to get promoted. They offer the improvers a challenge which is very important.

Rapid promotion is no solution. It comes with the risk of rapid demotion too and a steadier progression is probably a better thing. Certainly, Division 1 (and probably 2) would be a lot stronger if we hadn’t had in season promotion.

I hesitated to write a reply on this subject because I feel there are two sides to change. When something changes, at least 10% of those affected go off in a huff. Too many changes and you are down to half your participation level. If you don’t change anything, though, how will we ever progress the sport and attract new people.

I don’t know the solution. I have scratched my head over this for years. We do, however, need to satisfy the needs of the “exam takers” and the “fun makers” if we are going to push our top racers ever closer to the very top, whilst satisfying the needs of the many slalomists who support the sport in so many different ways.

Finally, I feel that the current Executive Committee have a real drive to do the best that can be done in the interests of all. I have never felt that so much before, even when I was on the Exec myself. So let’s not talk about “them and us”. Talk to the Exec Members, voice your opinions openly, get involved and support them.

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