Great Course - Well organised Rugby CC

Mick h · Post by **Mick h** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:50 pm

Its time for praise where it is due. I was delighted to see a course designed to test paddlers at the Div 1 slalom at Holme Pierrepont on Sunday.
I hope other course designers take note and learn lessons from the challenges set on Sunday. I was not good enough to get a good result but I had fun trying.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:08 pm

If anyone has any film of the course, and paddler's attempts, put it on You Tube please

ps. I'm a lowly div2 paddler who just about coped with the easier course on Sat but couldn't stay on Sunday

PaulR · Post by **PaulR** » Thu May 17, 2007 10:44 pm

how can you possiblily say that?!!?!?...a slalom course is meant to flow, the course on sunday had none of this.it had no flow at all. parts of the course were segments from selection 2 years ago, could this truly be a true reflect of a div 1 course. i agree that div 1's should be challenged, but should they be scared to the extent of not wanting to paddle or atleast try the gates??? me thinks not.

what about having a nice, friendly, introduction to paddlin/racing at HPP??

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Fri May 18, 2007 12:00 pm

I suspect Mick posted this thread fishing for a response like this - he must like trolling. I have refrained from comment until someone took the bait.

1) The course could be made to flow (apart from some dodgy upstreams - but I don't think they're what you are complaining about)

2) There was a nice easy introduction to HPP on Saturday - div 1 should not be anyone's first experience of HPP

3) We have too many easy courses in div 1, often because the water does not allow hard courses. I am always disappointed if an easy course is put up on HPP, because it is the one place that hard courses can be put without making the risk of damage to boats and paddlers unacceptable.

What surprised me was that in general, the order of results was very similar to other "easier" events. There were one or two exceptions, older more experienced paddlers who are too slow on the easier courses got a better result than normal, and some younger paddlers learnt that there was a lot more to this game than going fast.

Finally, I am sure that most paddlers that tried to tackle this course came out of the weekend better paddlers than they were before. Now that has some seriously good implications for the future development of our young paddlers.

Carlr · Post by **Carlr** » Fri May 18, 2007 4:13 pm

I can think of better things to waste £15.50 on than a s---- course like that.

jake vkc · Post by **jake vkc** » Fri May 18, 2007 6:53 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-sCtqOBkcM
here's a video of last weekends race, theres probably some more out there!

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Fri May 18, 2007 7:26 pm

Carlr wrote:I can think of better things to waste £15.50 on than a s---- course like that.

Well, I think that I have wasted my £15.50 when they put up an easy course on HPP. Different people have different ideas of what makes a great course, and we obviously disagree. However, there are two more races on HPP this year, I'm sure that at least one of them will be to your taste.

I know from past experience what Rugby courses are like, and that is why I make a special effort to get to their races. It may be the only HPP race I go to this year, but I am glad I went.

Irena · Post by **Irena** » Fri May 18, 2007 7:32 pm

Although I agree with Paul's comments, I feel we must remember that the course was set by a volunteer and one who puts a lot into the sport. Clubs and volunteers should be encouraged rather than openly criticised in a way which can hardly fail to be belittling. Just a thought.

Dave Royle · Post by **Dave Royle** » Fri May 18, 2007 7:51 pm

I think it is good that this sort of thing is discussed and I hope the course designer doesn't take the criticism personnally and takes something useful from it.

Personnally, I thought the course was too difficult. It was at least as hard as the senior selection races and if we consider that the divisions should have some sort of progression then I would expect Selection Races to be harder than Prem races and Prem races to be harder than Div1.

Courses take a great deal of consideration and in division 1 there is a very wide range of abilities. It's no good complaining that the standard is rubbish as the paddlers are there because of the division and promotion system.

In order to cater for the wide range of abilities it is necessary to provide easy slow options withe faster more direct options for the more experienced. This is where the course was dissappointing as there weren't options which would suit the wide range of abilities competing.

The other thing to consider is should we have such a wide range of Division 1 course difficulty? If this was an exam you would expect to know the syllabus in advance and you would expect that the questions asked of you would be in a particular range of difficulty. Integration (which I never really mastered) should not appear in the 11+ or whatever it is today.

So, when designing courses for a range of abilities on HPP I would recommend thinking not only of exciting moves that can be really great to try, but also stand back for a minute and think about what other options could be made available for someone who has less experience which will lose them time but build their confidence.

John Sturgess · Post by **John Sturgess** » Fri May 18, 2007 9:35 pm

Most of the paddlers I was coaching managed to mess up - and learn a lot. Exactly how it should be. I thought it was an excellent course - Diane's always are.
Given the impossibility of meeting Dave Royle's prescriptions about 'knowing the syllabus' the debate above seems an excellent example of why I favour 'Open Entry', with the decision on which races to attend lying with a paddler's Coach, rather than with a Divisional System that can never answer questions like that
More on this to come ...

PaulR · Post by **PaulR** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:23 pm

dont get me wrong, i'm not looking to criticise those that have given up their time and efforts to design a course...i praise them.and i am sorry if i came across to harsh.

I do agree with dave royle; there were no options and this is one things as a racer i feel is important to push. i.e. what option you are willing to take in a race, the spin ir direct.

on the other hand i do also agree with john strugess when saying that paddlers can learn alot; make them understand and realise what their true abilities are at the time, and what they have to do in order to move forward and be able to cope with such courses.

it is possible to set hard courses that flow AND have options, just look at senior selection this year for a great example.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Sat May 19, 2007 10:13 am

Thanks Jake for the You Tube clip,
The course didn't seem to give you much trouble by the look of it. Many of the gates seemed to be in the same position as Saturday, where my aim was just to get as few 50s as possible.

jake vkc · Post by **jake vkc** » Sat May 19, 2007 5:48 pm

it doesnt look to bad on the video.... but, it really was! and i think on sunday, lots of div 1 peoples aims were to get down without 50's

Mick h · Post by **Mick h** » Sat May 19, 2007 8:45 pm

Carlr judging by your comments maybe slalom is not the sport for you have tou considered tiddlywinks or maybe stamp collecting. :p .
Also the comments the course did not flow are rubbish the course flowed if you where good enough to make it flow (I wasn't). There were some fantastic gate combinations when you got them right especially 5 to 9, I nailed it a couple of times over the weekend and it really felt sweet.
I am not advocating every slalom course should be as difficult but it was inspiring to get on and enjoy this one after not being on moving water since December due to injury.
I find ironic that course designers who dare to be different and make the sport more challenging are critcised. Colin Shackleton took a lot of flack at the Washburn for trying to be different but his courses were great.
Not many people will remember when reverse gates where taken out of slalom but when this rule was introduced one of the arguements for not removing the reverse was a skill would be lost from the sport. This was countered by the people proposed the removal of reverse by saying " A good course designer could force paddlers to do a reverse gate." My challenge to course designers is to tighten the staggers and force the reverses. While you are at it lets see some Merano's.

Jerry Tracey · Post by **Jerry Tracey** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:33 am

I think that I must be one of the 'older more experienced paddlers who did better than usual', although I did need a roll after being sucked back into the muncher on the second run, despite actually going through all of the gates!!
I really enjoyed the slalom and felt that it provided an interesting and welcome challenge although I do agree that the course did not really flow well. Congratualtions to all who took part and many thanks to Rugby CC for a good day!