We can perhaps already see some effects of last seasons changes made in an attempt to cut Div 1 and P sizes.
Two facts;
1. With almost half [9 out of 20] of the Div 2 events behind us, of the 156 ranked paddlers in K1M Div 2, less than half have entered a race so far this year. And less than half of these [i.e. less than a quarter] have points scores for four races.
2. Despite being the only Div 2 race in a 5-week period*, there were only about 24 K1M Div 2 racing each day at Llandysul [and pretty much the same 24 both days].
*[and look at the race options either side of that; single at HP, double all the way up in Fairnilee, single all the way down in Cardington and just Washburn in the whole of July]
So what are the Div 2 paddlers up to ?
1. No incentive to race. It’s been made harder to get up and will continue to be so; especially as Div 2 fills up with more experienced paddlers including an increasing number of Div 1 demotees fighting to get back up. Just going for the ‘social side’ or ‘for fun’ isn’t going to drive anyone to more than a few races each year.
2. Waiting until the last third of the season. By then anyone who’s any good will have gone up and so there will be less competition.
Someone might be able to come back at me with similar figures from this point last year to say that nothing has changed, but I know from talking to people that this is the general feeling.
“Fatboy” made some very useful points and is right when he says “The whole sport, including the division structure, is set-up around juniors and their development up to elite level”. It isn’t going to work unless unless you keep the divisions filled up with all types of paddlers with some form of incentive to race routinely. Lets go back to the dynamic system that we had which allowed the ‘cream to rise to the top, but made sure there was enough ‘full-fat milk’ underneath to allow that to happen.
Is it good to cut division sizes?
Previously people like myself who were reasonably fit, reasonably skilled but not dedicated to either training or travelling were in Div 2, and thus enjoyed a variety of water without travelling too far (depending where you lived) such as HPP, Washburn, Serpent's Tail, etc. As is well documented there was plenty of competitive racing to be had - often well over 100 in K1M. Div 1 was a feeder division to Prem and realistically everybody in it was wanting to be in Prem. Go to an average Div 1 now and ask how many want to go to Prem and many would (do) say no thanks.
So Div 1 is now trying to support two roles - feeder for Prem for up and coming superstars, and holding ground for people who simply want to enjoy slalom to a reasonable level. What is required by those trying to give a good grounding for wanna be Prems (less events, biggest water only) is not what people like me want (more events, more doubles, happy with challenging course regardless of water).
These changes to these divisions aren't simply because demotion/promotion levels aren't right, it's because we have one less division than then. It's obvious that somebody who was toward the top of Div 2 then is now toward the bottom of Div 1 now - still basically the same % from the top of Prem. Of course we can't support 6 divisions now as we don't have the numbers.
So enough harking back to the good old days. What can be done? Preventing as many people coming up to Div 1 is a short term patch realistically. If I deliberately got myself demoted I would be back in Div 1 within 4 races max, and I wouldn't enjoy it in Div 2 any more because if I didn't win I would be embarrssed. It would only work if lots of us deliberately got demoted! Esentially what I'm saying is even though I back the idea as a short term fix, just by making it 3 wins/best 4 you won't recreate the good old days of Div 2.
I am of the view that with the lower numbers we have now telling people that a given slalom isn't for them is not helping the cause. Also I do agree that recreating the Div 2 of old for people like me is what we need to keep/get adults into the sport, but I don't think we'll do it within a divisional structure any more.
So Div 1 is now trying to support two roles - feeder for Prem for up and coming superstars, and holding ground for people who simply want to enjoy slalom to a reasonable level. What is required by those trying to give a good grounding for wanna be Prems (less events, biggest water only) is not what people like me want (more events, more doubles, happy with challenging course regardless of water).
These changes to these divisions aren't simply because demotion/promotion levels aren't right, it's because we have one less division than then. It's obvious that somebody who was toward the top of Div 2 then is now toward the bottom of Div 1 now - still basically the same % from the top of Prem. Of course we can't support 6 divisions now as we don't have the numbers.
So enough harking back to the good old days. What can be done? Preventing as many people coming up to Div 1 is a short term patch realistically. If I deliberately got myself demoted I would be back in Div 1 within 4 races max, and I wouldn't enjoy it in Div 2 any more because if I didn't win I would be embarrssed. It would only work if lots of us deliberately got demoted! Esentially what I'm saying is even though I back the idea as a short term fix, just by making it 3 wins/best 4 you won't recreate the good old days of Div 2.
I am of the view that with the lower numbers we have now telling people that a given slalom isn't for them is not helping the cause. Also I do agree that recreating the Div 2 of old for people like me is what we need to keep/get adults into the sport, but I don't think we'll do it within a divisional structure any more.
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Seedy Paddler
- Posts: 440
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 2:00 pm
Have to say not really sure what the debate is about.
However in response to the initial posting I cannot make your statement stack-up against the figures. If Div 4 then the wee lad may have made the top half in results but sorry not good enough - practice more and come back next time. If Div 3 then the only assumption is that he won both days and then found out the rules have changed and he has another event to paddle. Again shouldn't be that big a deal if promoted he would have to compete elsewhere and with the confidence of 2 wins on the trot should be flying for promotion soon.
Ultimately though life is full of disapointment and part of lifes learning is working out how to deal with that!
Are the divisions too big do we have too many events ? Unfortunately it is Catch 22, reduce the numbers and you reduce the viability of many slaloms, reduce the number of events and you reduce the number of participants as many limit their travel radius. Playing the numbers game is unlikely to succeed as a unilateral approach!
Could Slalom Organisers (BCU/SCA etc and Event Organisers) be more innivative in developing their events and the sport? In some instances very probably. How good is pre-event publicity, have we got partnerships with local Clubs and organisations ? A range of questions and for sure I do not have all the answers, all I do know is that I will keep trying. Perhaps more improtantly we have increased entry levels at our event (Div 3/4) over the last 2-3 years that means more people have entered the sport so the potential for growth does exist!
I have to counter that with a view that Event Organisers are not adequately compensated for the effort, investment and financial risk required to organise an event. But I also know that entry fees are one of the major turn-offs to perspective converts, which only leaves a case to reduce levies!
I revert to previous statement on the old days, we did not get rid of Div 5 we got rid of the old Div 2. Unfortunately Div 2 used to be the bridge between entry/developing slalom and progress to elite competition. It was also the domain of old farts (myself included) that enjoyed reasonably challenging courses and water, less formal format and limited the need to travel the length and breadth of the country to get results. Current Div 1 had compromised in many aspects but it still leaves me with a single local site and a requirement for extensive travel if I want to vary the background or gain results.
More Open events? Check the yearbook - the open events are coming off the SCA sites. In the past they were used by SCA and SCA Clubs to allow non-members a come and try approach, sample the water if you like you join! For a period was a lot more succesful than if you pay a bit extra you get a day ticket to compete. However as most site now include higher divisions than 4, Open events are liable to levies and entries at the higher classification. Net result Open classification is deleted as it becomes a price barrier and the risk is not matched by revenue. We don't mind putting something into the sport but we cannot afford loss leaders!
Should we reconsider the current structure ? Absolutely we should always be open to change until we are in aposition that we have a fully sustainable and participative sport.
Should restructuring be based on a wee laddie greeting because he tried hard but didn't get promotion ? - Absolutely NOT!
Sorry for the ramble - better get back to work!
However in response to the initial posting I cannot make your statement stack-up against the figures. If Div 4 then the wee lad may have made the top half in results but sorry not good enough - practice more and come back next time. If Div 3 then the only assumption is that he won both days and then found out the rules have changed and he has another event to paddle. Again shouldn't be that big a deal if promoted he would have to compete elsewhere and with the confidence of 2 wins on the trot should be flying for promotion soon.
Ultimately though life is full of disapointment and part of lifes learning is working out how to deal with that!
Are the divisions too big do we have too many events ? Unfortunately it is Catch 22, reduce the numbers and you reduce the viability of many slaloms, reduce the number of events and you reduce the number of participants as many limit their travel radius. Playing the numbers game is unlikely to succeed as a unilateral approach!
Could Slalom Organisers (BCU/SCA etc and Event Organisers) be more innivative in developing their events and the sport? In some instances very probably. How good is pre-event publicity, have we got partnerships with local Clubs and organisations ? A range of questions and for sure I do not have all the answers, all I do know is that I will keep trying. Perhaps more improtantly we have increased entry levels at our event (Div 3/4) over the last 2-3 years that means more people have entered the sport so the potential for growth does exist!
I have to counter that with a view that Event Organisers are not adequately compensated for the effort, investment and financial risk required to organise an event. But I also know that entry fees are one of the major turn-offs to perspective converts, which only leaves a case to reduce levies!
I revert to previous statement on the old days, we did not get rid of Div 5 we got rid of the old Div 2. Unfortunately Div 2 used to be the bridge between entry/developing slalom and progress to elite competition. It was also the domain of old farts (myself included) that enjoyed reasonably challenging courses and water, less formal format and limited the need to travel the length and breadth of the country to get results. Current Div 1 had compromised in many aspects but it still leaves me with a single local site and a requirement for extensive travel if I want to vary the background or gain results.
More Open events? Check the yearbook - the open events are coming off the SCA sites. In the past they were used by SCA and SCA Clubs to allow non-members a come and try approach, sample the water if you like you join! For a period was a lot more succesful than if you pay a bit extra you get a day ticket to compete. However as most site now include higher divisions than 4, Open events are liable to levies and entries at the higher classification. Net result Open classification is deleted as it becomes a price barrier and the risk is not matched by revenue. We don't mind putting something into the sport but we cannot afford loss leaders!
Should we reconsider the current structure ? Absolutely we should always be open to change until we are in aposition that we have a fully sustainable and participative sport.
Should restructuring be based on a wee laddie greeting because he tried hard but didn't get promotion ? - Absolutely NOT!
Sorry for the ramble - better get back to work!
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Nick Penfold
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm
Small point of fact needs to be registered here:
The only real change to promotion upwards from Div 3 or Div 2 is that you need to do one (yes, just one) more race. The average points needed is just the same as it was before.
We have made no change at all to promotion out of Div 4 - it's one in five, as it has been for years.
The only real change to promotion upwards from Div 3 or Div 2 is that you need to do one (yes, just one) more race. The average points needed is just the same as it was before.
We have made no change at all to promotion out of Div 4 - it's one in five, as it has been for years.
Quote: "The only real change to promotion upwards from Div 3 or Div 2 is that you need to do one (yes, just one) more race."
Yes, mathematically, it is. And if you are one of those who is managing to regularly come in the top 2 or 3 places at each race, it might only mean one more race.
But for the bulk of those in Div 2 and 3 who might only manage to get the required 900 or 825 points every few races, if that, it's not just one extra race; it's a few extra races. Previously there was always that chance of getting up with only three good runs needed over the course of a season or having a good weekend somewhere and just needing one good run somewhere else and to get up. That acted as an incentive to go to races. A tangible incentive.
Anyone who knows me, knows that I'm not making these points purely out of self interest; I've as much chance of getting 900 pts at the moment as getting into the Liverpool squad. But I’d like to believe that as I get better then may be there’s a chance, next year, that I can make it. I don’t feel that any more.
I can understand why some of the changes were made but I think the number one aim of any changes should be to widen and retain participation and then allow the best paddlers to emerge from the system.
Yes, mathematically, it is. And if you are one of those who is managing to regularly come in the top 2 or 3 places at each race, it might only mean one more race.
But for the bulk of those in Div 2 and 3 who might only manage to get the required 900 or 825 points every few races, if that, it's not just one extra race; it's a few extra races. Previously there was always that chance of getting up with only three good runs needed over the course of a season or having a good weekend somewhere and just needing one good run somewhere else and to get up. That acted as an incentive to go to races. A tangible incentive.
Anyone who knows me, knows that I'm not making these points purely out of self interest; I've as much chance of getting 900 pts at the moment as getting into the Liverpool squad. But I’d like to believe that as I get better then may be there’s a chance, next year, that I can make it. I don’t feel that any more.
I can understand why some of the changes were made but I think the number one aim of any changes should be to widen and retain participation and then allow the best paddlers to emerge from the system.
Reasons to slalom include : excitement of competing, improving skills and fitness, enjoying white water, meeting friends, spectate (better, weaker paddlers, friends, fellow competitors), sense of achievement etc. Focus on these reasons and you have a successful system.
Does making it harder to be promoted or avoid demotion make any of the above reasons more prominent? If in 3 years time the bottom 30 paddlers in div1 have been demoted to div2 will they be enjoying the sport more, or less?
Its easy to be in favour of something when it doesn't really affect you. I'm just as guilty, supporting the idea of making it harder to stay in div2, but for paddlers at this level it can be just as demoralising as demotion from prem or div1, particularly if you tried your best. Demotees feel embarrassed if they don't win races, without any real feeling of satisfaction, and the attendant fear of it happening all over again...Of course fear is a great motivator, but if you still fail... ???
Does making it harder to be promoted or avoid demotion make any of the above reasons more prominent? If in 3 years time the bottom 30 paddlers in div1 have been demoted to div2 will they be enjoying the sport more, or less?
Its easy to be in favour of something when it doesn't really affect you. I'm just as guilty, supporting the idea of making it harder to stay in div2, but for paddlers at this level it can be just as demoralising as demotion from prem or div1, particularly if you tried your best. Demotees feel embarrassed if they don't win races, without any real feeling of satisfaction, and the attendant fear of it happening all over again...Of course fear is a great motivator, but if you still fail... ???
I agree with a few of the other poster who have pointed out that dealing with disappointment is a big part of sports development. A certain very young Mr. Ratcliffe was once an angry and tearful child in the back of the car until his dad told him that if he was going to carry on like that, he wouldn't be going to any more events! Being disappointed, and dealing with those disappointments make us better athletes and people, as well as aiding competition if one reaches an elite level.
The only thing one can guarentee in sport is disappointment. But that is what makes it so good, persuing a dream of an elusive achievement, whether it be getting to Premier, or reaching the Olympic Podium...
The only thing one can guarentee in sport is disappointment. But that is what makes it so good, persuing a dream of an elusive achievement, whether it be getting to Premier, or reaching the Olympic Podium...
Is it too much to send out a questionnaire with yearly handbooks asking paddlers their view of any proposed changes, and whether it might affect their participation ?
Paddlers demoted from div1 to div2, or stuck near the top of div2 will need courses/water just as exciting as those in div1. I've already decided not to go to one div2 event, and go to HPP for a play/practice instead.
I think any changes need to cater for different types of paddler. Not everyone is destined for greatness, or has a coach by their side, or even a club with other slalom paddlers. Who is to say that a particular 10 yr old so distraught by being demoted from div1 to div2 that they give up, could not have become another Campbell Walsh.
Has anyone ever sent a questionnaire to paddlers who 'drop out' of the system asking them why, and what might have prevented them from doing so ?
I think you should be able to enter every event regardless of division, and it shouldn't be difficult to award some ranking points compared to a prem paddlers time. Separate but alongside the current system, you could always collate points throughout the year like the judges do, so you could be eg. the best div2 paddler at prem and div1 events...
Sorry to go off topic, but I think there should be a fun prize for the most entertaining run at each competition, and please could organizers make sure any trophies have something specific to the achievement written on them.
Paddlers demoted from div1 to div2, or stuck near the top of div2 will need courses/water just as exciting as those in div1. I've already decided not to go to one div2 event, and go to HPP for a play/practice instead.
I think any changes need to cater for different types of paddler. Not everyone is destined for greatness, or has a coach by their side, or even a club with other slalom paddlers. Who is to say that a particular 10 yr old so distraught by being demoted from div1 to div2 that they give up, could not have become another Campbell Walsh.
Has anyone ever sent a questionnaire to paddlers who 'drop out' of the system asking them why, and what might have prevented them from doing so ?
I think you should be able to enter every event regardless of division, and it shouldn't be difficult to award some ranking points compared to a prem paddlers time. Separate but alongside the current system, you could always collate points throughout the year like the judges do, so you could be eg. the best div2 paddler at prem and div1 events...
Sorry to go off topic, but I think there should be a fun prize for the most entertaining run at each competition, and please could organizers make sure any trophies have something specific to the achievement written on them.
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boater rich
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 1:59 pm
Looking at this from a non slalom paddlers Point of View, an Open system as advocated by John Sturgess would encourage my participation.
For some perspective on me - I am a capable grade 4 white water paddler and paddled continuously for the last 10 years (I'm 26).
I cannot be faffed with pootling around on div 2/3/4 slaloms on effectively flat water. Watching my Partner race on Div 1 courses is inspiring and at the appropriate level of WW that I enjoy paddling. Ergo, I would probably compete in those events, the fact I would get my #### kicked (in speed terms) by any div 1 man wouldn't really matter to me - I would be there for the challenge the course presented me.
I suspect many other experienced WW paddler would be tempted onto a slalom course if there were more open events. Possibly this would revitalise slalom? It would also, perhaps, move away from a system that has small childern in tears at the top of the Graveyard due to a lack of all round confidence for bigger water.
Just my 2pence.
Rich
For some perspective on me - I am a capable grade 4 white water paddler and paddled continuously for the last 10 years (I'm 26).
I cannot be faffed with pootling around on div 2/3/4 slaloms on effectively flat water. Watching my Partner race on Div 1 courses is inspiring and at the appropriate level of WW that I enjoy paddling. Ergo, I would probably compete in those events, the fact I would get my #### kicked (in speed terms) by any div 1 man wouldn't really matter to me - I would be there for the challenge the course presented me.
I suspect many other experienced WW paddler would be tempted onto a slalom course if there were more open events. Possibly this would revitalise slalom? It would also, perhaps, move away from a system that has small childern in tears at the top of the Graveyard due to a lack of all round confidence for bigger water.
Just my 2pence.
Rich
Well said Rich. I think playboaters from my club would be tempted to have a go on the more exciting water in div1 or2.
I think an open system should exist alongside the current system.
Also, if a paddler entered as an open or judge entry and finished in the top half, they ought to be able to bipass the usual promotion system and be eligible to enter that division.
A good playboater in our club occ does a slalom in div3 in his playboat with average results. I lent him my slalom boat last yr and he won his div3 race. He'd have come 4th in the div2 race, 2nd without his 2 penalities. By allowing him to paddle at a higher level he might even come to enjoy it.
I think an open system should exist alongside the current system.
Also, if a paddler entered as an open or judge entry and finished in the top half, they ought to be able to bipass the usual promotion system and be eligible to enter that division.
A good playboater in our club occ does a slalom in div3 in his playboat with average results. I lent him my slalom boat last yr and he won his div3 race. He'd have come 4th in the div2 race, 2nd without his 2 penalities. By allowing him to paddle at a higher level he might even come to enjoy it.
A system does exist. Anyone can apply to the ranking status officer and "On applying for a ranking a paddler may state the division preferred, but the Ranking Status Officer has the final say" (rulebook, p56). You don't even have to have entered an event at all, but obviously any Divisional, Judge and Open event results can be used to support an application.
Also, if you want to do higher divisional courses than your current ranking, volunteer to judge at such events and do judges runs. I, for one, certainly did more Prem and div 1 events when I was in div 2 than I ever did div 2 events.
Also, if you want to do higher divisional courses than your current ranking, volunteer to judge at such events and do judges runs. I, for one, certainly did more Prem and div 1 events when I was in div 2 than I ever did div 2 events.
"Keep events under 16 per season and manage down towards 12. This would incidentally reduce the number of promotions to Premier Division so I do not propose any other action
for that purpose."
Having read that this was one of the aims, I do wonder if there will be enough active sport to engage people properly and make them want to join in. One of the most talked about points recently has been that there aren't enough competitions and an overall lack of good development and training opportunities between races for MOST people.
For example, the last race at HPP (in early June) left a gap until Washburn (late JULY) of more than a month between races. How do you expect anyone to complete their "apprentiship" and gain race experience to make them more equiped to race in the upper divisions?
Surely to encourage people to stay in the sport and race properly at a higher level, MORE races are required? If you really want to limit promotions, why not put limits on this by only allowing end of season promotion (or perhaps only based on points gained - with a limit on the number of promotions in any one year?). This of course isn't the only method to decide, so please do not throw away the notion of control simply because this method doesn't suit the purpose.
I cannot see that limiting Div 1 to 12 races and Prem to 9 (max) is encouraging people to develop into serious racing - a stated aim of those running the sport.
for that purpose."
Having read that this was one of the aims, I do wonder if there will be enough active sport to engage people properly and make them want to join in. One of the most talked about points recently has been that there aren't enough competitions and an overall lack of good development and training opportunities between races for MOST people.
For example, the last race at HPP (in early June) left a gap until Washburn (late JULY) of more than a month between races. How do you expect anyone to complete their "apprentiship" and gain race experience to make them more equiped to race in the upper divisions?
Surely to encourage people to stay in the sport and race properly at a higher level, MORE races are required? If you really want to limit promotions, why not put limits on this by only allowing end of season promotion (or perhaps only based on points gained - with a limit on the number of promotions in any one year?). This of course isn't the only method to decide, so please do not throw away the notion of control simply because this method doesn't suit the purpose.
I cannot see that limiting Div 1 to 12 races and Prem to 9 (max) is encouraging people to develop into serious racing - a stated aim of those running the sport.
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MarvinRounce
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:06 am
- Location: Nottingham
At a play boating competition you can just turn up and enter.
Good non slalom paddlers who want to paddle a race on decent water have to either:
Judges Run - which is boring for most people!
Apply for ranking status - which is a long winded boring thing to do!
This doesn't encourage people from other disciplines of canoeing (Polo, Playboating etc.)
Stop being boring!
Good non slalom paddlers who want to paddle a race on decent water have to either:
Judges Run - which is boring for most people!
Apply for ranking status - which is a long winded boring thing to do!
This doesn't encourage people from other disciplines of canoeing (Polo, Playboating etc.)
Stop being boring!
You can turn up and enter at a div 4 race tho, and the liklihood of you being able to just turn up and be competitive at higher devision level is unrealsitic unless you are fairly experienced at slalom.
I do agree that a few open races run alongside the divsional system would be good tho, maybe weekend events with a head to head on the flat followed by the main event, if we could get the flat race in the middle of town like the opening ceremony of the Euros in Nottingham, then we could probably attract sponsers, and eventually offer prize money.
I do agree that a few open races run alongside the divsional system would be good tho, maybe weekend events with a head to head on the flat followed by the main event, if we could get the flat race in the middle of town like the opening ceremony of the Euros in Nottingham, then we could probably attract sponsers, and eventually offer prize money.