Kayak Paddles

jke · Post by **jke** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:56 pm

I'm in the market for some new paddles. I currently use a pair of cheap river running paddles length 194 cm and sometimes my old waveski paddles 190 if I'm trying to keep my paddle rate up on the flat. The area of these is around 760 to 800 cm2. I'm thinking that I should be using longer paddles for slalom to aid turning. In which case I would probably need slightly smaller blades. Any suggestions on paddles and their combination of length and size appreciated. I'm a skinny 6ft 1ins tall.

John Kent

Dutch Geezer · Post by **Dutch Geezer** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:31 pm

Hi John

Your probably looking for a paddle about 202 cm in length. Depending upon your personal preference, get the angle set to the same as your other paddles or the recommended angle appears to be 65 degrees.

Most slalomists today use the kinetic shape by Double Dutch, Galasport or Raab. Nomad do paddles as well and also Lettmans are available.

As always, see if you can try someone else's and see which ones feel the best and go from there.

jke · Post by **jke** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:14 pm

Thanks Dutch Geezer. 202 seems a bit long. What blade area is the Double Dutch Kinetic medium? With that length I would expect to use something a bit smaller than my current ones. But as you say, best to try some out.

John Sturgess · Post by **John Sturgess** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:37 pm

1) Overall length can be a bit misleading. The key measurement is neck to neck

2) Put your paddler on top of your head. Move your hands until the elbows make a right-angle. That is your hand position: mark it (for paddling - with 6-8 wraps of insulatingtape stops the hands sliding). That gives you he most efficient hand position in a slalom boat (lower forearm horizontal)

3) Distance between little finger and neck depends on your strength level: maybe 10-12 cms for a normal adult, shorter for a child, longer for an adult

4) However overall length should allow you to insert the paddle vertically - i.e. limit of arm-length/how high you can get the top hand

5) I am puzzled as to why you think that longer shafts require smaller blades - optimum blade size is mainly a function of strength - but the longer your shaft the more leverage you have, therefore the bigger the blade you can use effectively.

Is that any help?

Dave Royle · Post by **Dave Royle** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:34 pm

Good reply John. I think the explanation you give should lead jke to the right length with good hand positioning.

Just on point 5 - "The longer the shaft the more leverage you have."

In fact this is the reverse. The longer the shaft the more leverage the paddle has on you.

If you consider the fulcrum to be the top hand and the force (F) to be provided by the bottom hand at a distance (d) from the fulcrum then this force will be resisted by a moment created by a force(S) resolved to the centre of the paddle multiplied by the distance of that centroid(t) from the fulcrum.

Resolving moments about the fulcrum F.d = S.t

Thus as t increases (the length of the paddle from the top hand to the centre of the blade) so the force(S) in the paddle reduces. This force requires a lower surface of area to sutain the reaction without too much slippage.

The problem with this school of thought is that you end up with paddles which are unmanageable in length and the fulcrum of the top hand isn't a fixed point. Better to stick with something a bit more comfortable with a sufficient area to not slip in the water.

202 would seam good to me.

jke · Post by **jke** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:28 pm

On John's point 5, surely you need to use the optimum stroke rate for the boat. That depends on (among other things) the length of your paddle, the size of the blades, and the length of the boat. For example, my waveski paddles are 190, my racing paddles are 223.

I've tried making a right angle with my river running paddles as in John's point 2 but that puts my hands a total of 6 ins (2 x 3) wider than feels normal. I've just tried again with my racing paddles and the position my hands go to is about a total of 5 ins wider. Still a little short of a right angle. That difference must depend on the ratio of paddle length inside and outside your hands but I'm still not sold on a right angle.

So, 202 it is then!

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:41 pm

John - re point 2. I'm not sure about putting the "paddler" on top of my head - he's a bit heavy!:-)

campbell · Post by **campbell** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:50 pm

For efficient paddling technique, it is recomended that the distance between the knuckles of your 2 middle fingers is at least equal to, preferably slightly greater than 1/3 of the entire paddle length. [Calculated by some German sports scientists!]

jke · Post by **jke** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:44 pm

Update on my search for a paddle. I've now got some proper slalom paddles and they're great. My concern about length was unfounded - I can now use a higher arm action (John S point 4).

Some figures to back up campbell's one third ratio. I've measured this with 3 of my paddles (racing, slalom and waveski) and in each case the ratio ends up as one third.

Just one more comment. John S point 2 - elbows making a right angle. This is OK as a starting point for a beginner in a short boat but I would end up with my hands almost touching the blades (ratios of 0.4 to 0.47 below).

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5)
222 74 0.33 89 0.40
202 67 0.33 89 0.44
190 63 0.33 89 0.47

(1) Paddle length
(2) Natural distance between hands (middle finger to middle finger)
(3) Ratio (2) / (1)
(4) Distance between hands - right angle at elbow
(5) Ratio (4) / (1)

John Kent

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:53 pm

Apologies, but nothing to add - just want to keep the discussion alive as I have just purchased shaft and blades to make up a new set and will be grateful for all this information when I start 'glueing' up. [Never had to do so before].

Any tips gratefully received. I have got some info from Cool Blue website.

Dutch Geezer · Post by **Dutch Geezer** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:17 pm

This is how I assemble paddles. If anyone disagrees, by all means correct me.

Determine overall length required.

Dry assemble the paddle and make sure that the blades are fully seated in the shaft. If the shaft is too small to fit the stubs, be very careful about rubbing them down. Contact the supplier and get their advice/permission.

Measure the overall length. Subtract required length from overall length. This determines how much you will need to cut off the shaft ( Just hope that this figure is positive and not negative)

Measure down the shaft and wrap masking tape around the cut line.

With a fine tooth Hacksaw (32tpi) and a mitre box, cut the shaft. (if you do not have a mitre box, make sure the cut is perpendicular to the length of the shaft). Be careful when you go through the other side of the tube, its better to stop, rotate the shaft and finish the cut from the other side, less chance of the shaft splintering.

If you are using a moulded grip and heatshrink, I would fit them now. That way if the heatshrink splits you can change it. You can fit the grip with doublesided tape or glue. I also put electrical tape around the ends to keep it secure)

Roughen the inside of both ends of the shaft and the stubs of the blades. Remove the dust ( Do not use white spirit as it can leave a residue and affect the bond)

Optional: get 2 pieces of bouyancy foam and push one into each end of the shaft. Push it down the length of the stub.
(Helps to stop water getting into the shaft, if the joint leaks). Also if the stubs are hollow seal them as well, keeps the weight down and makes sure that resin completely fills the joint.

Put three pieces of heatshrink onto the shaft to seal the joint once assembled. Push down the shaft out of the way.

Decide on the glue you are going to use. Araldite Rapid is quick and you can get it apart later if you are lucky. Araldite Precision takes longer and less likely to sucessfully come apart with heat later on. resin is messy, but good if you have to wrap the stub in glass to make them tight in the shaft. If the stub is very small in comparison to the shaft, pack it out with glassfibre of kevlar etc. It should be a snug fit, dont rely on the glue to fill the Gap.

You can dry assemble the paddle again and mark the angles on the shaft and blades. R/H paddler - You can put the right hand blade on a straight edge and then make sure the grip is at the top and centralised. Confirm by holding the shaft in a normal grip and make sure the line of the knuckes and the top of the blade are in line.

I start with the right hand blade.

Make sure you use gloves, Epoxy resin (Araldite etc) can cause skin problems.

If using Araldite rapid, remember 5 minutes is the max working time and it goes quick.

Fill the shaft with glue, work it in with your finger and make sure there is a lot in the shaft. (Excess will come out when you fit the blade).

Cover the stub in glue, again rub it in well.

Put the blade into the shaft. Rotate and push it in, let air and excess resin come out. Wipe off excess resin.

Align the blade with the shaft. With some shafts it can be a good idea to wrap kevlar thread around the end of the shaft, (helps to stop the shaft from splitting)

Make sure the blade is fully home in the shaft.

Put the heatshrink over the joint and shrink it down.

Let the glue set before you move the paddle.

Repeat for the other blade. Be careful on setting the overall angle.

Cut off the spare heatshrink if you have not used it.

Good luck.

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:13 pm

That's great thanks DG. Some extra info there that's not in the instructions that I already have.

Couple of things;
It reads as if you shrink the heatshrink into place before the glue has set - is that right ?

Where can I get extra heatshrink material if I need it - electrical suppliers ?

Dutch Geezer · Post by **Dutch Geezer** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:19 pm

I find that by shrinking the heatshrink down whilst the glue is still setting it helps to keep the thickness down around the finished joint. When ever I have removed heatshrink it seems to be stuck to the glue more which i take to mean a better sealed joint.

It also helps to keep the blade in position better if the paddle has to be moved before it sets.

I can send you some heatshrink, send me an e-mail with your address.

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:12 pm

Thanks again, I will email you if I find that I need some more heatshrink. My last pair were made up by Chris at paddleworks and he used one piece from the grips right along to cover the joint; which I quite liked [then again, maybe that's where they snapped on the Graveyard the other week !]