Go Back!? - End of Season Promotion

HaRVey · Post by **HaRVey** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:10 pm

What happened to the good old days of end of season promotion from Div 1 to PREM?
I know many years ago, getting to PREM was the cherry, the 'i've made it' of slalom canoeing, if you had got to PREM you knew you were up there with the big boys. And that you deserved to be, competeing.
Do the juniors and promotees still have that feeling, that drive and desire to get there, today?
Part of it, maybe, they still want to be there, but getting to the very top division in our sport is a walk in the park, and no more special (different) now than those who get promoted from div4 to div 3, and on asking many people that, infact, mite even be more important for some people.

Having end of season promotion for div 1, had a few major advantages (which perhaps (and this is controversial) would have allowed, racing down the falls this weekend.)

1. Those promoted and demoted, had to have complete the majority of a season in Div1, giving them valuable experience, and race practice, on all the major race venues.

2. The cut off line was not a set value, which has no reflection to the standard of competition, but was determined by the comittee, of those paddlers who would cut it in PREM.

3. The number of PREM paddlers was controlled, both in an upward, and much larger downward effect too, there were many more demotees, and regulation of the numbers occured naturally, with out the need for it to be stated in the year book.

4. This is the most important: It very much increased the strength of Div1. Having 5-10 paddlers who can win in a race, is far better, provide far more race simulation at the top level, and prepares those paddlers much better for thir racing future. Currently we get rid of those 5-10 paddlers so that by the end of each season it is far easier to win, than it was at the beginning. How is that a sensible system? For the aims of the divisions are to direct people to race at suitable level races, and gauge how good they are, relative to everyone else, well if thats the case, then you currently need a progressive compound percentage adjustment, to calculate where you really are, in the scheme of things. You may be winning, but not have improved at all.

Of course this is just one idea, but doesn't it make sense? be progressive by all means, but look back to what worked in the past, and incorporate it into your visions for the future?!

Does anyone else see this as a viable idea. Please post your support

or disgust :O at these suggestions!
Mr. V : p

Dave Royle · Post by **Dave Royle** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:05 pm

I agree with HaRVey. Let's get rid of in season promotion from Div 1 to Prem.

John · Post by **John** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:03 am

Why is promotion from div1 to prem any different to promotion to div1, div 2 or div3?
Surely the four advantages Harvey states, are valid for any division, so shouldn't end of year promotion be for all divisions?

Kev.S · Post by **Kev.S** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:57 am

From 1 to Prem, yes end of season promotion only. From 3 & 2, to 2 & 1 possibly, but it would be fairly demoralising to stop in Div 4 for a whole season.

66-1146487544 · Post by **66-1146487544** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:13 pm

Why is promotion from div1 to prem any different to promotion to div1, div 2 or div3?

Because of the level you need to be competing at to make each step from one division to the next. It is not a straight line but a steeply rising curve, as many competitors have probably found out this season.

Some paddlers enter the sport late, some paddlers have a lot more coaching support than others, some paddlers have parents that are prepared to trek the length & breadth of the UK to attend as many training and competition ooportunities as possible.

All these reasons result in vastly different progression rates through the divisions, particularly for juniors but this also could apply to paddlers returning to the slalom discipline or senior paddlers who suddenly find they are able to commit more time to the sport.

Division 1 is unique I think because it is the final test of your strength, purpose, commitment, etc. before making it to Prem - and yes, I still think there are a large number of paddlers out there who still strive to make it to Prem - and not just the juniors - have a look at the number of U23/Senior/DV paddlers who returned to the sport last season and quickly proved that they hadn't forgotten anything about how to be competitive.

I would therefore support this move for Div 1 only if it goes to a vote at the ACM.

P.S. Is there a time limit for proposing rule changes ahead of the ACM?

Morky · Post by **Morky** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:27 pm

Having taken up slalom at the age of 39 after many years pottering down the odd river I began the season in div 4 as I did not presume I could compete in the higher divisions. However I must have learnt something over the years and soon got promoted through the divisions to div1. I would have found it demoralising to have to wait till the end of each season to move up. Also having a son beginning the season in div 4 and getting promoted to div 2 I think it would limit his experience and slow his development in the sport if he had to complete a full season in each division. It would also need consideration in the World Class Start program. However there is a huge jump from div 2 to div 1 and to spend a full season in div 1 would mean the level of competition at the top of the division would remain high and only the truly best div 1 paddlers move onward and upward. Hopefully one day that might be my son but for me I fear not.

jke · Post by **jke** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:50 pm

Kev.S wrote:[From 1 to Prem, yes end of season promotion only. From 3 & 2, to 2 & 1 possibly, but] it would be fairly demoralising to stop in Div 4 for a whole season.

I don't entirely agree here. I'm not saying stay in Div 4 for a whole season but the balance is not currently right. Most Div 4's are Doubles. So 20% get promoted on the Saturday. Because in most cases it's the same people on the Sunday, a further 20% get promoted meaning almost 40% get promoted over a weekend.

That has two effects. Firstly it decimates the numbers in Div 4 races, and secondly, in many cases the promotee is neither committed to the sport nor committed to the BCU so being forced into a higher division puts them off.

That is clearly not the case with the likes of Morky and his son.

John Kent

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:24 am

Yes Boat Sherpa there is a time limit for moitions to the ACM. From memory it is 30 days before the meeting (I will check tonight) That would mean that suitably signed motions (signed by two individuals representing the views of their club, for safety this means discussed at a committee meeting and minuted otherwise it may be challenged.) must be in the hands of the secretary by 1st November - Rats we missed the date.

BUT the slalom committee can add motions at its next meeting, if it sees fit. So if arguments are put convincingly enough it is possible that they may be taken to the next committee meeting.

Historically, in season promotion to Prem was brought in as there was a movement not to delay paddlers in progression up the divisisions for artificicial reasons. Some very persuasive arguments were then advanced by the coaches and in season promotion was agreed.

Some old reactionary capitalist running dog (called Woodgate) then pointed out that if there is a defined level for getting promotion, why shoudl you be promoted at teh end of season for not reaching it? and end of season promotion went away.

I am not in favour of setting an absolute level fo points for promotion and demotion, it needs even more crystal balls for the committee to foresee the numbe rof paddlers in all divisions in twelve monhs time, how many points will be acheived by each and how this will affect the start of the season in 18 months time, if we want to try to manage the divisions so that Prem is indeed the elite, division 1 paddlers are all good, and we have a reasonable number of competent and active paddlers in all divisions. But that is a different debate.

Seedy Paddler · Post by **Seedy Paddler** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:17 pm

Missed the deadline for motions but I would dispute the decision that because you did not make the required criteria during the season you should not be promoted at the end of the season.

Why have Ranking Status options, check this year we had several accorded Div 1 status as RSC. The majority do not appear to have results and of the remainder many of the results do not substantiate a significant difference from many of the upper end Div 2 Non Promotees.

I would quite happily return to end of season promotion and demotion with a target of establishing viable division sizes and normalising issues.

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:55 pm

Would it not be worth asking some of the possible demotion paddlers if they want to continue competing before just demoting them and lowering the bib no's of the ones in the lower div that have worked hard all year to get where they are now?

I know of several people that have given up the sport this year that are now in line for demotion but have no intention of competing again next year.

It is demoralising for a paddler to be ranked 1st in their div at the end of the year to be demoted to 5th/6th etc when the paddlers that have been demoted have only done 1 or 2 events all of the previous year (not counting short season).

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:56 pm

I did Div4 - Div1 in 12 months having never done white water and been out of paddling for 20 odd years (when I used to do Marathon and a bit of polo).

So it appears following this idea I should have spent 4 years on entering the sport at the age of 38 to get to Div 1.

I'm pretty sure I would have got demoralised long before I did get to Div 1 bouncing around on the same courses each year just so I could wait months to get to the next division.

I really see no benefit to anyone of any age in waiting until the end of year to get promoted. Quite what is it supposed to achieve apart from demoralising the paddler and preventing progression?

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:16 pm

"For the aims of the divisions are to direct people to race at suitable level races, and gauge how good they are, relative to everyone else, well if thats the case, then you currently need a progressive compound percentage adjustment, to calculate where you really are, in the scheme of things. You may be winning, but not have improved at all."

If I was one of the Div 1's promoted this year I might well be offended by this.

I've paddled against and with most of them for the last 3 years or so, started off encouraging and beating them, watched them catch me up and race off (literally) in to the distance.

I've been able to see them progress and improve in every way, not only year on year but throughout the season and between events.

Each and every one that I know personally has deserved promotion and has had to work exceptionally hard to achieve it.

To infer that any of them got promoted easily, without competition and without improvement is beyond belief.

From memory most of them took at least a year to make the progression from Div 1 to Prem, so paddled every venue at least once as suggested.

It will be interesting to see how each of them is progressing after 12 months in Prem. I can't see any of them getting demoted so that would say they got promoted at the correct time.

I know things are a lot easier than they were years back (hence me being in Div 1 if the truth is known) but in my opinion thats just a reflection of the fact less people do the sport as there are so many alternatives both within and outside of canoeing these days.

From what I can see the current system is working well.

Nick Penfold · Post by **Nick Penfold** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:37 pm

I for one am very much in favour of in-season promotion to Prem.
First, because it's better that people have a clear target to go for, and, when they achieve it, know that their promotion was honestly earned. End of year promotion means decisions made in the proverbial smoke-filled rooms. Some people will always suspect that there was bias in the decisions, and there were times in the past when they would have been right.
Second, because we had cases where a Div 1 had 5000 points by mid July and could do nothing that felt like a challenge until his obvious promotion was rubber-stamped at the end of the year. Why on earth hold a paddler like that down?
The Exec does still have the power to do end-of-year promotions, but hasn't used it for several years because the numbers going up in season seemed about right. Of course end-of-year-only promotion would make it easy to manage numbers, but it's a cop-out solution.

andy n · Post by **andy n** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:19 pm

By end of season there were 8 K1M, 5 K1W and 5 C1 promotions. We can assume they would probably have been the top boats if there were no in season promotion. If we reverted to the old system it would seem reasonable to promote these numbers from each class so all would be in Prem next year anyway.

With in season promotion the early promotees have had the opportunity to gain valuable Prem experience, earn a decent ranking for next season and have gained (in many cases) some very good results.

I see no advantage in changing back to the old system.

End of season promotion does have a place - consider the Div 1 C1 in season promotions. 3 out of 5 were ex-Prem and arguably too good to have been demoted the previous year so no surprise that they claimed 8 wins between them. Paddlers that have not quite made promotion in these circumstances should be considered for end of season promotion.

Phil Stevo · Post by **Phil Stevo** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:31 am

In season promotion also gives up and coming paddlers more 'pressure' racing situations. When someone knows they need to come in the top three to gain promotion at say their 8th race of the season it really focusses their attention to that race. Rather than thinking they have another 7 races to gain their points for the end of season promotion.

In season promotions give a much more 'championship' feel to competing with success drectly linked to performance on the day, as against wainting for the committee to decide if you are good enough some month later.

Racing will be a lot less exciting for the top guys in Div 1 if the end of season promotion ACM motion gets through.