Vets Leagues

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:55 pm

Since the junior league tables have proved to be very popular, let's have the same for the Vets.

Instead of just having DV, we would need - let's say for example - DV35, DV45, DV55, [DV65 ?!] where DV35 would be everyone 35-44, etc.
Something similar is done in WWR.

The arguments for doing this would be the same as that for the J league tables. In fact I'd say it could be classed as age discrimination not to do it, but then I'm probably biased. On the serious side, it would provide a little extra spur for those of us in this category to race more often.

jke · Post by **jke** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:37 pm

That would only make sense if all Vets paddled as DV and not some in a separate Vets division. There must be a history behind having both. There are no separate Junior divisions.

In other sports there are Vets age groups - in Orienteering every 5 years.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:26 pm

I was shocked to be called a vet when I started slalom 2 yrs ago. Why not just increase the age to 45 or 50 ?

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:40 pm

How about a completely new concept called "Masters" - with different age caregories. Vets is such a horrid title! It would need a bit of though but comon guys lets hear some ideas!

Phil Stevo · Post by **Phil Stevo** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:18 pm

This an excellent idea Anne. In the absence of an offical older vets competition we ran our own for over 50's this year.

The rules were £10 in each and the top ranked over 50 man at the end of the season took the cash.

So congratulations go to Martyn Setchell as this year's winner. Martyn also had the added pleasure of taking money from a number of Yorkshiremen!

The real upside of this is that we all got fired up losing 3 and a half stone between 3 of us and it made our season much more enjoyable and competitive.

The main question is how to structure the age bands. My own view is the 'masters' should start at 40 as paddlers have been winning Olympic and World medals at 35 in recent years with a 39 year old getting into the final at the last Olympics.

Therefore I would suggest over 40s, 50s, and 60s. This could be a spur for lots of people to really give it a go or even to come out of retirement.

As there could be a few older paddlers dropping out of Prem this year it would also give more to stay in the sport for.

For this to change for next season it would now need a motion from the Slalom Exec for the ACM I believe.

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:19 pm

I think there's enough of an idea already
Use the term Masters
I think 5 year intervals are too short - our sport isn't sufficiently well populated for this. Taking into account Steve's comment [35 is a bit young to be called a Vet] we could have 40-49, 50-59, 60+

As for the separate Vets league - It confused me when I started, and I have to say I still can't see the point, other than it being an easy way to stay at P/1 level. Though I don't agree with John that the original idea would only make sense if all Vets paddled DV, since most of them do anyway.

[This was submitted simultaneously as Phil Stevo's, but glad to see some agreement]

jke · Post by **jke** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:59 pm

mwilk wrote:I think there's enough of an idea already
Use the term Masters

It doesn't matter if it's called anything. Just list competitors in the start list and results as M40, M50, M60 and so on. As long as you sort out the "normal" competitors (M/W18, M/W23?). I can then compare myself with others in my age category rather than trying to beat 12 year olds.

Why not take it a step further, combine mens and womens, and have one race for each division and class, and then list competitors as M50, W50 etc. On second thoughts that could screw up the points.

mwilk wrote:As for the separate Vets league - It confused me when I started, and I have to say I still can't see the point, other than it being an easy way to stay at P/1 level. Though I don't agree with John that the original idea would only make sense if all Vets paddled DV, since most of them do anyway.

I'm confused too. When I did slalom last there were neither Veterans nor Juniors.

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:15 pm

I too was surprised to be regarded as veteran when I started (42). I remember suggesting a 'Novice Vets' category be established. If something like the above goes ahead, then how about separating those who have spent years in the sport from those who are recent starters. The criteria could be based on highest division achieved, so paddlers who have never made Prem would not be competing against those who have been demoted from Prem and, almost inevitably, thus have a much higher skill level than late starters are ever likely to achieve.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:53 pm

The Vet league should be abolished. Its only purpose is to allow more divisional races to be entered. Open or judge entries for other divisions are just as good options. If you become demoted through loss of speed or fitness then it is probably no longer as safe to be competing on the most difficult courses. There would have to be one extra rule though to allow people to avoid relegation if they score 500 points in a single race or 800 in 2 races, or 900 in 3 races (numbers approximate).

This would allow organisers to give one further trophy to an older age category without further expense (at least over 40, and over 50). A Vet ranking system similar to the Junior ranking could be used to allow direct easy comparisons.

jke · Post by **jke** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:44 pm

katonas wrote:This would allow organisers to give one further trophy...

I know you're not proposing more trophies overall but as a member of an organising club let's not get carried away with trophies at (ordinary) races. A simple token is sufficient to give the recipient their 10 seconds of fame as they collect it. Similarly tokens for M/W 40, 50, 60 ... We gave out small porcelain medals to the minor placings. 50p each I think they cost.

Phil Stevo · Post by **Phil Stevo** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:01 pm

I agree with Katonas that if we introduce over 40s, 50s and 60s leagues the purple bib vets competitions are no longer necessary.

Also there is no need to burden organisers to provide trophies at each event just have end of season awards for 1st 2nd and 3rd for each category and the winners listed in the year book - just to show the grandkids.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:27 pm

jke wrote:I know you're not proposing more trophies overall.

Organisers and Vets equally happy.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:32 pm

Phil Stevo wrote:winners listed in the year book - just to show the grandkids.

This counts more than a trophy, or medal.

Having a DV ranking list on canoeslalom.co.uk as well, would add a competitive edge throughout the season.

What would need the most careful thought, is how to allocate Vet league paddlers to an appropriate division. Prem/div1 Vets ought to go into div1. I suppose Div2,3,4 Vets could either go into div3 or challenge into div2 like newcomers do, unless they were in div2 recently.

Does anyone know how many points a div2 challeger must obtain to be in div2 ?

Phil Stevo · Post by **Phil Stevo** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:40 am

Purple bibs Prem/1 to Div 1 and Div2/3s to Div2 sounds fair enough as they will then find the natural level through the ranking system.

The only exception being if someone's results at this year's Prem races would have kept them in Prem then that is were they should be ranked.

If anyone disagrees with this they can always apply to the Ranking List Compiler to be re-ranked.

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:16 pm

Having a DV ranking list on canoeslalom.co.uk as well, would add a competitive edge throughout the season.

The incentive to race as a result of using web-published league tables was the main reason for the original suggestion, i.e. same as for the J leagues. For me this would offset the loss of incentive that has arisen from tightening up on promotion points.

It seems to me that this is a popular idea; there have been no counter arguments as yet.
I would suggest that any proposed changes are kept simple so that they are more likely to get the go-ahead;

Change the vet cut-off to 40
Use M40, M50, and M60 as status – these would be entered on the entry cards as such.
No extra trophies at individual races; just the usual prize for top DV, now top Masters [over 40]
If there are any strong cases made to retain the separate Vets league, leave as it is for now, at least for this next year.

These changes would just need someone to scour the yearbook for any references to DV to be changed. [Though, just realised; the entry cards would need changing as they have DV in the status list]
And someone to compile the M40, M50 and M60 leagues tables each week [not likely to be as big a task it is for the J-leagues; I’d happily volunteer]

It’s been said before on this site that we are the neglected end of the sport. Here’s our chance to do something about it. Is anyone out there on the appropriate committee ? Anne ?