ACM Motion 6.4 End in season promotion from Div 1 - 'Just for Fun, to see what people think'
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Canadian Paddler
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By ending in season promotion to the Premier Division will allow better control of the size of the Division and also remove the tendancy to dilute the standard of paddlers within Division 1 as the season progresses. It also means that the restrictions on the number of Division 1 events is far less significant
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
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Nick Penfold
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This is on the front page, so you might have read it already, but I think this is a bad idea.
The reasons given are "better control of the size of the Division" (easier, yes) and "...remove the tendency to dilute the standard of paddlers in Div 1 as the season progresses". That ignores the constant flow of rapidly developing talent in the Division. Only 8 K1 Men, 5 K1 Women and 5 C1s were promoted this year: that is too few to "dilute" anything.
I am strongly opposed to this motion for two reasons:
Paddlers need promotion when they are ready. In 2000, before in-season promotion was introduced, Craig Morris had 4 wins and a 2nd place, and 4985 points, by mid July. His promotion at the end of the year was no more than a rubber stamp, but for half a season the sport offered him no new challenge. This is an extreme case, but in varying degrees it was a common problem.
End of year promotion means committee decisions that will always be suspected of bias, however honestly made, by some of those who don't make the cut.
Paddlers deserve to get their place in Prem when they are ready, and on their own merits, by achieving a public target. Please get your club to vote against this motion.
The reasons given are "better control of the size of the Division" (easier, yes) and "...remove the tendency to dilute the standard of paddlers in Div 1 as the season progresses". That ignores the constant flow of rapidly developing talent in the Division. Only 8 K1 Men, 5 K1 Women and 5 C1s were promoted this year: that is too few to "dilute" anything.
I am strongly opposed to this motion for two reasons:
Paddlers need promotion when they are ready. In 2000, before in-season promotion was introduced, Craig Morris had 4 wins and a 2nd place, and 4985 points, by mid July. His promotion at the end of the year was no more than a rubber stamp, but for half a season the sport offered him no new challenge. This is an extreme case, but in varying degrees it was a common problem.
End of year promotion means committee decisions that will always be suspected of bias, however honestly made, by some of those who don't make the cut.
Paddlers deserve to get their place in Prem when they are ready, and on their own merits, by achieving a public target. Please get your club to vote against this motion.
In season promtion is fine. What happens when as in C1 this year, three of the the promotees back to Prem are ex GB junior paddlers. Therefore only two on the five promoted are new to Prem. Seems rather tough on the Div ones. The three were also getting times that would have put them in the semi finals or finals of Prem races.
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Nick Penfold
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kayak smurf
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I feel that end of season will be much better and will make it that the races through the year are more fair. At the moment the early results dont count for anything by the end of the year as the amount of people promoted end up making the later races worth more points wise. If it was end of season it would end up producing more motivated and potentially better paddlers ready for the following year in prem. this is because the competiton in the top of div 1 will be stronger and may push people to become more commited!?!
xx
xx
I dont see what the problem is, you are always going to have to race against ex prem paddlers who have been demoted to Div 1 (in all classes). i believe it gives you something to work for. So go get a life and stop moaning, maybe do a bit more training and improve your paddling or if your no good stop making excuses as to why you get beaten at races.
I'm actually for this one. Back in the day when we had no inseason promotion Div 1 was a lot closer and far more competitive.
Sure you give Craig as an example, and I got promoted from Div 1 around June time as well. The first thing that happens when you get promoted early (because you are above standard by your reckoning) is that you sit on the sidelines until September when the next Prem is. When I got promoted I remember going to the Washburn about 1 month later and getting done over by about 5-10 seconds, despite having won three events a few months earlier. In season promotion is good but it has its side affects too.
If you look at this years Div 1 then only 9 paddlers have gone up... but look at the spread of results. There isn't a bunch of 5 that are well within their limits, but lots of paddlers who are COMPETING CLOSELY. If there is concern that there may be the odd paddler who is way outperforming in that division then change the rule to have both. Say a paddler who wins five races can get promoted, but all others will be subject to end-of-season promotion.
As for the comment about the decision on promotion/demotion numbers, then bring in a rule that states a line can only be drawn where there is a split of 75-100 points (or 7-10 for K1L,C1,C2)!
Sure you give Craig as an example, and I got promoted from Div 1 around June time as well. The first thing that happens when you get promoted early (because you are above standard by your reckoning) is that you sit on the sidelines until September when the next Prem is. When I got promoted I remember going to the Washburn about 1 month later and getting done over by about 5-10 seconds, despite having won three events a few months earlier. In season promotion is good but it has its side affects too.
If you look at this years Div 1 then only 9 paddlers have gone up... but look at the spread of results. There isn't a bunch of 5 that are well within their limits, but lots of paddlers who are COMPETING CLOSELY. If there is concern that there may be the odd paddler who is way outperforming in that division then change the rule to have both. Say a paddler who wins five races can get promoted, but all others will be subject to end-of-season promotion.
As for the comment about the decision on promotion/demotion numbers, then bring in a rule that states a line can only be drawn where there is a split of 75-100 points (or 7-10 for K1L,C1,C2)!
I agree that mid season promotion isn't necessarily a good thing!
There are exceptions when a good prem paddler has been demoted due to illness injury or other, or a div 1 paddler has had a good winter training and is reaping the rewards. Maybe setting the limit for promotion higher to give div 1s the incetive to work harder. How about 4900 points for K1M? (+similar for ladies/c1) This would mean that the paddlers who were "incorrectly" held back could prove the slalom committee wrong. (Although I think that over the years they get it right, as there is generally a natural gap forms over the course of a season)
In the olden days winning div 1 was a massive achievement having raced hard all season. You're racing against the same people all season and had to keep the effort up to stay ahead, and the excitement was there at the last race to see who'd done it... It was rare for someone to have it in the bag by june/july.
There are problems with mid season promotion as shown in the season that i got to prem. By the end of the season there wasn't the people to race against and to be honest i should have had another year in division one. I realised this and worked hard and did alright the next year, but not everyone has the same attitude or commitment, and struggling for a whole season in prem isn't fun for anyone...
I think that only looking at the promotions this year is the best way of looking at it either. I agree that everyone that has made it to prem this year deserved it, in previous years and more importantly future years where there is no way of controlling the promotions. Hence there is potential for some not too good paddlers getting to prem due to having the top division one paddlers missing at the end of season and a few good results.
There is a big step up from division one nowadays (if that's a word?) since in division one you can paddle the course all morning before you do your proper runs and you only have to fluke a few good runs at the end of the season to get up. Prem has no practice, the fields are strong and you need the consistency to do well, or even average! This consistency would be proven by a season racing at the top of div one rather than several exceptional results...
There are exceptions when a good prem paddler has been demoted due to illness injury or other, or a div 1 paddler has had a good winter training and is reaping the rewards. Maybe setting the limit for promotion higher to give div 1s the incetive to work harder. How about 4900 points for K1M? (+similar for ladies/c1) This would mean that the paddlers who were "incorrectly" held back could prove the slalom committee wrong. (Although I think that over the years they get it right, as there is generally a natural gap forms over the course of a season)
In the olden days winning div 1 was a massive achievement having raced hard all season. You're racing against the same people all season and had to keep the effort up to stay ahead, and the excitement was there at the last race to see who'd done it... It was rare for someone to have it in the bag by june/july.
There are problems with mid season promotion as shown in the season that i got to prem. By the end of the season there wasn't the people to race against and to be honest i should have had another year in division one. I realised this and worked hard and did alright the next year, but not everyone has the same attitude or commitment, and struggling for a whole season in prem isn't fun for anyone...
I think that only looking at the promotions this year is the best way of looking at it either. I agree that everyone that has made it to prem this year deserved it, in previous years and more importantly future years where there is no way of controlling the promotions. Hence there is potential for some not too good paddlers getting to prem due to having the top division one paddlers missing at the end of season and a few good results.
There is a big step up from division one nowadays (if that's a word?) since in division one you can paddle the course all morning before you do your proper runs and you only have to fluke a few good runs at the end of the season to get up. Prem has no practice, the fields are strong and you need the consistency to do well, or even average! This consistency would be proven by a season racing at the top of div one rather than several exceptional results...
Hi Nick,
I believe this debate has merit in both camps. Regarding the citation of my situation in 2000, I would offer my opinion on the season as a whole. Remaining in Div1 nutured a winning mentality in me as a paddler, that I believe is healthy at that or any stage of development. This is rarely seen at present due to fast track promotion. Also that season as you may recall saw the come back of Mark Ratcliffe in the latter half of the season. Whilst it looked like I had the title sewn up this provided a great challenge and I recall being enthralled by the battle. Mark and I with a number of other paddlers had some excellent rivalry toward the back end of the season and chasing the illustrious 5 wins was a huge goal of mine. Hence I would not support the view that no challenge was offered. I realise this may be different for certain padllers, however this is my personal view of my own experiences. I would not have wished to have been promoted early during 2000. I wanted to win as many races as possible. I stress that these are my own views and not any related to my current position within canoeing! Hope they are useful in this debate.
Craig
I believe this debate has merit in both camps. Regarding the citation of my situation in 2000, I would offer my opinion on the season as a whole. Remaining in Div1 nutured a winning mentality in me as a paddler, that I believe is healthy at that or any stage of development. This is rarely seen at present due to fast track promotion. Also that season as you may recall saw the come back of Mark Ratcliffe in the latter half of the season. Whilst it looked like I had the title sewn up this provided a great challenge and I recall being enthralled by the battle. Mark and I with a number of other paddlers had some excellent rivalry toward the back end of the season and chasing the illustrious 5 wins was a huge goal of mine. Hence I would not support the view that no challenge was offered. I realise this may be different for certain padllers, however this is my personal view of my own experiences. I would not have wished to have been promoted early during 2000. I wanted to win as many races as possible. I stress that these are my own views and not any related to my current position within canoeing! Hope they are useful in this debate.
Craig
I agree with Craig, we need to maintain the quality of Div 1 throughout the season, re-establishing end of season promotion will result in the top paddlers 'battling it out' which ensures only the strongest get promoted. I think that this season has been an exception, 8 K1M achieved promtion to Prem, with the exception of only the latest promotees I would suggest that each of the paddlers deserved their promotion and there has been a fair mix of results.
I approve of the contraversial return to end of season promotion even though I have a vested interest in a paddler newly promoted!!!!!
I approve of the contraversial return to end of season promotion even though I have a vested interest in a paddler newly promoted!!!!!
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Nick Penfold
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- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm
The target for K1M of 4750 points is hard to achieve, and it's nonsense to suggest that those who make it are not the strongest paddlers.
This has been an odd year: usually about 12 K1 Men make it to Prem. It's just happened that this year there was less difference in ability at the top of Div 1, and the points were spread around so that not many got enough together for promotion. The target system responded to the lack of obvious potential Prems by promoting fewer, and that's exactly how it should be.
If we fixed the number to go up, the effect this year would be to promote people who are not really up to standard. If we decided it in committee, we would look at the pattern and maybe make a better judgement, but we would still be likely to go for roughly "the usual number", so the effect would be the same. I think that targets, and in-season promotion, help to keep standards up.
This has been an odd year: usually about 12 K1 Men make it to Prem. It's just happened that this year there was less difference in ability at the top of Div 1, and the points were spread around so that not many got enough together for promotion. The target system responded to the lack of obvious potential Prems by promoting fewer, and that's exactly how it should be.
If we fixed the number to go up, the effect this year would be to promote people who are not really up to standard. If we decided it in committee, we would look at the pattern and maybe make a better judgement, but we would still be likely to go for roughly "the usual number", so the effect would be the same. I think that targets, and in-season promotion, help to keep standards up.
I'm generally in favour of the motion, but I still think there should be means for a padder who achieves three/five wins to go up mid-season.
But personally having been in premier for far too long (22 years), the issue is not who gets promoted and when, the real issue is the lack of any demotions from premier for the last ten(ish) years. When I got promoted to prem (100 in k1men) at the end of 1985, the figures where roughly 25 where promoted and 15 demoted (10 didn't race). This ensured that the standard in prem was very tough (usually at least half the promotees where demoted at the end of the season) and also kept the standard in div 1 high. Winning div 1 really meant something.
This year the target is to reduce prem to 65, 60 the next year and finally 55 the year after. but I'm afraid it looks like only 3 or so will join me in demotion. To up the standard this needs to be much more, make it a real challenge to stay there.
Phil Gooding
ps I back in training to rejoin prem next year.
But personally having been in premier for far too long (22 years), the issue is not who gets promoted and when, the real issue is the lack of any demotions from premier for the last ten(ish) years. When I got promoted to prem (100 in k1men) at the end of 1985, the figures where roughly 25 where promoted and 15 demoted (10 didn't race). This ensured that the standard in prem was very tough (usually at least half the promotees where demoted at the end of the season) and also kept the standard in div 1 high. Winning div 1 really meant something.
This year the target is to reduce prem to 65, 60 the next year and finally 55 the year after. but I'm afraid it looks like only 3 or so will join me in demotion. To up the standard this needs to be much more, make it a real challenge to stay there.
Phil Gooding
ps I back in training to rejoin prem next year.
One of the problems with the promotion/demotion system, is that it just does not work for people who only do a few races per year. At the moment you need 4750 or 475 points to get promoted to prem. Realistically you’ll need to compete in at least six or seven races to get that many points.
I’d like to see a return to end of season promotion, but then with possibly two “promotion” events in the season. You could have one combined prem/div 1 events in spring and one in autumn and promote those div 1 paddlers who, say, would have had more 600 or 60 points in prem. So you might promote 10 paddlers, or no paddlers at all. It depends on how strong div 1 is.
This would allow those paddlers who simply shouldn’t be in div 1 (for example the 3 former GB team paddlers in C1 this year) to be promoted without delay, but also maintain a strong competition in div 1 all year.
I’d like to see a return to end of season promotion, but then with possibly two “promotion” events in the season. You could have one combined prem/div 1 events in spring and one in autumn and promote those div 1 paddlers who, say, would have had more 600 or 60 points in prem. So you might promote 10 paddlers, or no paddlers at all. It depends on how strong div 1 is.
This would allow those paddlers who simply shouldn’t be in div 1 (for example the 3 former GB team paddlers in C1 this year) to be promoted without delay, but also maintain a strong competition in div 1 all year.
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Nick Penfold
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- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm
This year Jas Royle did it in 6 races (3 wins and 491 points); Warren Cohen in 5 (4876 points); Rys Davies in 4 (three wins)and Andrew Hamilton in 3 (three wins).
I think the "three wins" principle addresses the problem of promoting outstanding paddlers very well, and I'm puzzled by the very idea that promotion to Prem should be available to people who don't race often.
I think the "three wins" principle addresses the problem of promoting outstanding paddlers very well, and I'm puzzled by the very idea that promotion to Prem should be available to people who don't race often.