Proposed ICF Changes - Ski Slalom here we come. . .

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:42 am

3) The penalty and gates requirements will be changed. Most notably, the penalty for touching a gate will be reduced to 1 second, with a gradual phasing out of touch penalties altogether with the appropriate gate technology. In addition, the introduction of single pole gates will simplify organisation and judging at events without loss of the challenge inherent in slalom.

Extracted from Rules Evolution

Being an old fogey I was worried about reducing to 2 second penalties. It seems that the ICF plan is to reduce the judging requirement to 'did they get through or not' a la ski slalom. This is not the sport I started with in the old days, and I am worried about the 'gate technology' aspect. If internationals can have clever gates that can detect if a paddler has gone through or not, that is one thing, but hands up all those that think this will be available/working for a wet August div 2 at Grandtully, or a div 4 at Peterborough? TUTTI will not be able to cope! ???

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:02 am

I'm inclined to agree.

Added to which, if there is no required to go clean then hitting the poles hard could even be an advantage as they're more likely to be swinging wildly for the next paddler to come down.

I'm curious about the one pole gate too, especially in the lower division flat water slaloms where the effect could be to have a very wide gate.

Carlr · Post by **Carlr** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:04 am

It does make you wonder where these idiots are trying to take the sport, if i wanted slalom with one pole i would have taken up ski slalom! as to the 1 second penalty there will be no incentive to go clean.

jim croft · Post by **jim croft** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:45 am

I agree they are just not our sport, send all your complaints to the Chair Anne Hounslow (e-mail address in yearbook) so that a unified response of rejection can be sent to the ICF Board.

Jim

briman · Post by **briman** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:53 am

I agree. If i wanted to get down a river as quickly as possible, i'd take up WWR or sprint racing. For me the attraction of Canoe and KayaK Slalom is the skill to get the boat in place and clean the gate. The first slalom i ever did was a Novice event at Darley Abbey. My first run saw me lying in a pretty good position, but penalties saw me well off the pace. The organisers were offering a trophy (a small plaque) for every paddler who did a clean run. As a young impresionable chap i was keen to take something away so my second run saw me complete a clkean run - i was well chuffed. Even better was the fact that this saw me just outside the top three, and promoted, something that i've remembered ever since. Now currently with 2 second penalties dropping to 1 second, it's going to detract from the skill aspect into a sprint knocking everything out of the way. I'm not sure i want to be involved in that kind of event.

Bri

Dave Royle · Post by **Dave Royle** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:03 pm

I had a go at ski slalom once. Excellent fun and all over too quickly. Strange thing is although I didn't miss any gates, I couldn't get near enough to the inside pole to hit it either. I was obviously too cautious.

Single pole ups will be brilliant and much more exciting than the HPP Euros when the poles were too low ! We already do single pole staggers. It's just another name for a flush gate if you ask me.

1 second, 2 second. (There isn't a smiley that shrugs at this point) What about the 50? It's about time someone looked at that !

PhilG · Post by **PhilG** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:06 pm

I can remember a very similar chorus when at the end of 1985 they removed reverse gates and reduced penalties down to 5 seconds. The reality was an increase in options for the paddler and removal of the ‘dodgy sideways 50’.

To me the essence of slalom has always been racing down a great bit of white water and I’m afraid to say that low poles, tight gates etc usually detract from that experience. Can you really say that you all miss reverse gates, we still use spins on hard moves and the whiz kids have an option to run the move forwards if they are skillful enough.

I’m keeping an open mind until I’ve tried it out, but anything that will simplify the white water experience has to be encouraged. Short boats have brought about a plethora of new techniques that keeps the sport evolving and fascinating to learn. I suspect that these changes will encourage more flowing techniques.

On flat water there could be benefits, take for example a flat water breakout, I always feel inhibited by having to keep the bow flat to avoid hitting the outside pole. A single pole will allow you to let rip without an extra unnecessary artificial obstacle.

John MacLeod · Post by **John MacLeod** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:17 pm

Just think.... single poles = easier focus for the judge, less affected by the wind, many more options for course designers especially in tight areas of white water, gates easier to put up and adjust, a faster dynamic for paddling, an easier way in for the beginner, fewer poles to bang your head on (raft guides note). What's wrong with all that !

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:07 pm

Like the last three, I'm all for it. Including the fixed pole idea.
The 'simplifications' outlined would be of benefit to everyone involved - including the TV audience alluded to by the ICF. We've all agreed in previous topics that more TV is needed to boost the popularity of the sport.
Using one-pole gates wouldn't make it a WWR. The poles would still be positioned in order to stretch your paddling skills, in fact there'd probably be room to be more adventurous in placing them.
The fixed pole would be a bit tricky, but us Brits are an inventive lot; I'm sure we'd find a way of anchoring the poles down, even in the rivers.

Yester Years Kayak · Post by **Yester Years Kayak** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:35 pm

I have to admit that my first reaction was aargh what are they doing, it will be a disaster.

Having thought about it, i think it will be good for the sport.

By not having a clearly defined gate to navigate your able to make more decisions about your route, which could conceivably result in you loosing more time by getting it wrong than the 2 seconds you collect for touching a pole.

Lets be honest on the point of 2 pole gates - how many decent paddlers (with todays style of competing) actually view a gate as two poles?

That said, without looking at the proposals do they intend to have gates you have to navigate to the "left" or "right" of the pole (i assume they will still include upstream gates)? If the answer is yes then a third pole colour scheme will be needed. If not, then in essense you are realistically going to go straight down the middle of the river (ala WWR).

Now there could be a new idea *giant slalom* - anyone up for it??

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:53 pm

I can see some merit in one second penalities. In prem and above, where both runs count, a single error can have a disproportionate effect. I think this will be good for the sport as small errors will not be so disheartening and to win you'll have to focus even more on being the fastest.

On single pole gates, how will one know which side to pass? I'm having trouble visualising this one!! But then again, I am a muppet - I got lost racing at Cardington once!!!

John Sturgess · Post by **John Sturgess** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:29 pm

People may be surprised to know that I favour both the 1-second penalty - hoping that it will stop coaches telling young paddlers to be cautious - and the single pole gate

On the last point - which side of a single pole do you go - I assume that the answer is as for flush gates now: you go under the number board (which you will still need)

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:41 am

I am not against single poles, having put up a course below Orton Weir, with one pole half way up the weir, the only way to hit it was to go into the top wave in an open C2, stand up and swipe with your paddle. . In effect a 1 pole gate.

1 second penalties, well I will have to think about that. My concern is the aim to remove penalties completely

with a gradual phasing out of touch penalties altogether with the appropriate gate technology

How will this be practical at most events, and what happens when the technology IS there at international level but not domestic. Do we have to train for penalties for Tully, Town Falls but not at HPP? AND what do we do at the lowest level. Are we seriously going to have judges watching gates just to see if 2 paddlers (in the entire day) 1/2 head a gate, and how much concentration and focus could YOU keep up?

My suspicion is that the next step would be miss a gate and you are disqualified - Ok at the top level this is in effect the situation now, but think of those beginners, (or even div 1 paddlers) who make a mistake and mis a gate - writting off their entire run.

david wilson · Post by **david wilson** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:15 am

Have I read this incorrectly. There will in effect be no gate line so there can never be a Double Entry if this rule is adopted.
So what about a paddler who capsizes just as they are about to negotiate the Single Pole? All sorts of arguments can come out of that. How does a judge decide if the paddler was upside down at the gate if there is no gate line? Or will we not bother about that just as long as they cross the finish line breathing air instead of blowing bubbles.

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:10 pm

I too hope some form of sanction remains for touching a gate. I believe a lot of advanced skill is required to perfectly "time" entry and exit to a gate and thus avoid touches. Remove this requirement in entirety and the sport has to become less skillful. Additionally, I fear it will favour the more powerful and explosive paddler over the less strong but with high boat control skills. 1 second penalties yes, no penalties at all is a 100% definate no from this traditionalist.