Points and Promotion - Promotion of VETs and inexperienced

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:15 pm

I've just had a brilliant idea! ??? To solve the problem for DV's and S's who want to stay in the division they are happy in and speedy youngsters who whizz through the divisions before they have gained the basic experience... what about this for an idea?

A bit like for the C2 points why not have different points for different ranked events. So if a div 3 man wins a div 3/4 event he would get 500 points but at a div2/3 event would get 1000 for winning. If a div2 woman wins a div 2/3 she would get 50 but would get 100 by winning a div 2 only event or a div 1/2. That way there is no chance of a div 2 getting promoted if they have only raced at Cardington, Matlock and Sowerby, but by being successful at HPP, Washburn or Shepperton they could. After competing on these harder courses they would be more prepared for div 1. As for the cowards winning all the races on the easier water... probably not because those speedy kids are still around!

It all sounds too obvious... I must be missing something!

66-1146487544 · Post by **66-1146487544** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:23 pm

Hi Oldandslow,

I started to put something similar together last year but realised that there would always be to much debate about what some would view as an easy div 2/3 and others would view as difficult. You would therefore have to grade every slalom course and then even consider whether the course set on the day was easy or hard.

Worse still, I can here the complaints now from all the slalom organisers desperately trying to work out how many points to award based on which division a paddler is in, etc.

In the main the system works reasonably well as long as each category has a decent number of entries. Those that deserve to get promoted generally do so, and if they haven't taken themselves off to higher division events in advance of their promotion then they only have themselves to blame (or their parents).

Where the categories are not very well represented, i.e. C2 and also maybe C1 and Vets, then it makes sense to consider awarding points on a percentage of K1M rule. This has the same effect then as though these categories had been well represented and smooths out promotion points.

Yours,
Mark

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:46 pm

I don't agree...
I organise a slalom and calculating results is complicated enough with non quorate catagories, C2's, VETs etc... so this won't make it worse, just a little more of the same!

As for not getting the practise... my daughter was in div 1 after a handful of races in one season... 1 div 4, 2 wins in div 3 and 2 wins in div 2 - not my fault or her's, but she's done few div1 races, she's scared! After end of season demotion she is now teatering on promotion again after 2 races but won't do another race for fear of div 1 again!

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:56 am

I think what also needs to be carefully considered here is the possibility of "unintended consequence". For example, is it possible that a critical percentage of competitors would decide not to attend events where promotion is not feasible? If entries at these events declined below economic levels would clubs continue to run them? Could this suggestion not risk some venues (those stuck at 500 points max) being lost?

I agree with you that paddlers can get promoted above their ability levels, especially in the smaller ladies classes. However, I do not think there is an easy answer to this, other than to encourage competitors to ensure that their moving water skills match their divisional status. I was surprised at Matlock how many Div 2 paddlers failed to make a simple cross/ferry glide on a small drop (they got washed downstream) but were comparatively quick on the flatter parts of the course. Perhaps if you get to Div 2 but are not confident on Div 1 water, it's time to stop practising benign gates, take a "competition holiday" and build some skills for the more technically demanding water you will need to master as you progress?

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:54 am

I have been thinking about this for a bit this season as I try and work out why I compete and what my aims are (I am never going to be a world champion so I guess I set myself little aims each year as a target).

I agree that it can be easy to get to Div 1 for some people and that by getting there quickly it can put a few people off, but equally some people are more than capable of handling the water and should not be held back. By adding extra events it does take longer to get promoted than it used to, which does help and means that OldandSlow's daughter could not get promoted up the ranks as quickly now days.

My experience to date has been:

Promoted from Div 4 at the Nene. Was only promoted because I was the only competitor to make all the gates. Begged to be able to stay in Div 4 as being in Div 3 scared me! I had never been on moving water other than in 1 slalom at Cardington.

Promoted from Div 3 after trying Sowerby Bridge, Shepperton, Yalding, Marple and Matlock (my Div 3 career started at the end of a season). I still had never been on moving water other than at a slalom.

Currently in Div 2 and hope by the end of next season to be in Div 1 (just so that I can say I have got there). I have thought about what I have to do to get into Div 1 and as Spiderman will tell you one of these things is gate work and the other is improving my confidence on moving water. I went to the Div 1/2 at Shepperton and wanted to pull out but Dee talked me into giving it a go and I surprised myself. At Matlock I was the (in)famous person who swam on 3 out of 4 runs (though I am still not sure how that happened) but then did (for me) very well at Sowerby Bridge. Last weekend some very nice Proteus members took my to HPP to give that a go (only my second time on moving water not in a slalom the other being the Nene!) and to my surprise I managed to stay upright nearly all of the time.

I guess my point is that I have worked out that if I want to get into and to get somewhere in Div 1 I have to start entering Div 1/2 events. I might not be doing well in them but they are giving me experience and confidence. Perhaps before someone gets promoted to Div 1 they should have had to compete in a Div 1/2, even if their highest 4 points are from other events? Then they at least know what they are getting themselves into? Otherwise I think PaulBolton is correct in that it is the paddlers responsibility to start practicing on bigger water.

I am concerned that by introducing the method OldandSlow is suggesting may result in a very large Div 2 with little prospect from promotion which may put people off. Why? Because there are only 10 Div 1/2 events (including Div 2 only events) in the calendar, Assuming you need a win or second to get enough points for promotion (usually the case in the female event) and you need these in 4 events there would only be around 5 girls that would be able to get the points needed to go up each year...

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:52 am

Munchkin, you're a star and make some very good points. I'm sure you'll get in to Div 1 and do well there. You have a fantastic attitude and are clearly dedicated and that will take you far.

Cheers,

PB

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:05 pm

I can see what oldandslow is getting at but I have no idea of the ins and outs of running events, the effect of changes on attendance and the calculation of points. I still have no idea (or interest actually) how points are calculated for anyone! I am a coach/competitor and just like to paddle as well as possible to see who I can beat!

Accordingly, I will not comment on the suggestion. However, I will agree with PB's comment about "Munchy"

Having met her, paddled with her and coached her recently, (and hoping the latter is what produced her Sowerby performance!), she is definately the kinda competitor the sport needs. A real have-a-go attitude that is absolutely necessary to bring about self improvement. I doubt that anyone in the sport today can actually say " I have never been scared/concerned" about trying something in a boat. The combination of white water, lack of experience/ability or simply underconfidence can bring about a real fear but to battle on regardless is what it takes to get off the water at the end of the session and say " YES!"

I think individuals should work on improving ability on gates and moving/white water but ideally NOT at actual events. The added pressure of competition does not help and so it is best to do this between races.

So you went down HPP Munchy? GREAT! Well done, I am impressed and very pleased for you that you did that. Your Div 2's will now seem somewhat tame concerning water so you can concentrate more on the gates and your technique. Go girl!

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:12 pm

Munchkin wrote:Perhaps before someone gets promoted to Div 1 they should have had to compete in a Div 1/2, even if their highest 4 points are from other events?

Quite a few previous postings on this forum have mentioned that at least one of a div2 competitor's best results should include a race at HPP, div1/2 on the Tryweryn, or Grandtully. That wouldn't be too hard for ranking compilers to incorporate, with reduced danger of promotion if you don't want it. 800 points in one of these races might be an alternative target. On the other hand, I would feel sorry for a fast improving paddler capable of div1 water, missing promotion for this reason. :;):

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:34 pm

PaulBolton wrote:is it possible that a critical percentage of competitors would decide not to attend events where promotion is not feasible? If entries at these events declined below economic levels would clubs continue to run them?

Good point... probably so! I knew I was missing something! I suppose most people do want to get promoted - it's my daughter and I that are the odd ones!

I like the idea of having div 2's having to go to a Div1/2 event and likewise div 3's should have to do a 2/3.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:53 pm

oldandslow wrote:I like the idea of having div 2's having to go to a Div1/2 event and likewise div 3's should have to do a 2/3.

Well summed up. Perhaps an initial target of 800 points at one of these races could be set as a criteria for promotion. Maybe next yr...

Of course the div1/2 at llandysul last yr was a lot easier than the div2 at HPP, so I think HPP/Grandtully div2 races could be included. Perhaps there could be some flexibility depending on river level. A div2/3 at llandysul after heavy rain in April or May the yr before last, was pretty challenging.

Having a rule like this might help introduce ideas for avoiding demotion eg. 500 points in 1 race, 800 in 2, 900 in 3 races. These 2 rules would allow paddlers almost the same advantages that Vet paddlers enjoy, making it easier to stay where you are. Of course for a paddler such as myself trying hard to avoid relegation from div1 I should be glad the system relegates good paddlers who don't race often, because I might just about gain the same points in 5 races, they do in 2. With the above rule, the end of yr 5 race point cut-off would probably be well beyond my reach. Its not fair on these good paddlers though (perhaps more would stay in the sport if they weren't relegated), or those in the lower division who then have to compete against them. ???

adsmum · Post by **adsmum** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:43 pm

I agree, what a fantastic idea of oldandslows to help those of us who are reluctant to gain promotion to div 2 and who genuinely feel we do not have the skills to come anywhere but bottom all the time. I was relieved to have 3 lucky escapes last year and ended up top of Div 3! However I do appreciate the opposing arguments as well - if the whippersnappers after the high points did not turn up to 3/4 events they just wouldnt be the same. Div 3 is great for chatting on the start line, getting to know people and just enjoying the day, then watching them progress up the divisions in months to come - its the recreational division and for me as a DV, I really enjoy the challenge of both Div3/4 and Div 2/3 events and am proud of my somewhat slower, but definate progress over the last two years. I do not know what the answer is and it is somewhat of a paradox for me, being a bit competitive but not relishing the thought of promotion. I guess we all have our own personal reasons for doing this sport and our own targets and its great to find something to do alongside the younger ones that keeps you fit and gets you outdoors all weekend. I've had nothing but respect, encouragement and great conversations with these kids - well I am there to help them get more points! Maybe it comes down to adult fear and the knowledge that I would have to try harder (train???) and get on bigger water at any opportunity.

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:07 pm

sounding good KatonaS... even if a little complex!

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Fri May 02, 2008 5:46 pm

That's the problem isn't it ? Any system that you come up with makes it more difficult to manage.
I'd been trying to think of an age-related handicap points system that would work to help prevent DVs from being demoted from their division if - as proposed elsewhere - the Vets leagues are scrapped. But it just adds more complexity.

Nick Penfold · Post by **Nick Penfold** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:18 pm

One of the ranking compilers here....
We run a simple system that gives points on your place in the race, promotion when you achieve a published target, and end of year demotion if your points are really low. It's as straightforward, open and fair as we can make it, and we hope that at the end of the day as many paddlers as possible feel fairly done by.
Half-value points that effectively make it not worth going to some races? Isn't it already obvious that some C2s only do the Prem day of a Prem/1 weekend for exactly that reason?
Rules that grade courses and give extra value to hard ones? And then have to be adjusted because the water was low or the course was too easy?
Protection from demotion because you got one quite good result but otherwise hardly got your butt on the water?
Why not exemption from promotion because you're a vet, and you want to keep taking the prizes from the kids in a division you're really too good for?
If you get an unwanted promotion, you are free to keep going to the lower division events and paddling as a judge or Open. Otherwise, I recommend taking up croquet.

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:02 pm

Nick Penfold wrote:Half-value points that effectively make it not worth going to some races? Isn't it already obvious that some C2s only do the Prem day of a Prem/1 weekend for exactly that reason?

Equally, there may be certain C2s that don't do div 2s to make sure they don't get promoted!