oughtibridge
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dizzylemon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:53 pm
- Location: south yorkshire
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oldandslow
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:11 pm
- Location: Peak District
I was there on Saturday and had a wonderful day. Thanks to everyone at Oughtibridge who worked exceptionally hard behind the scenes to overcome the communication problems. Thanks too for the hours you must have spent on creating the interesting river features.
I think Dizzylemon... you ought to offer to organise a slalom before you sling too much mud.
I think Dizzylemon... you ought to offer to organise a slalom before you sling too much mud.
Dizzylemon, what right have you got to criticize people like that. They have gone out of there way to organize this event and you just go and slate them. They obviously had problem with something, which couldn't be sorted out. So cut them some slack. Not all races have to be run like div 1/Prem races are! If you think it is that easy to run an event do it.
If people keep putting posts on here just to offend the organization of the event, then the event just wont be run. Then that will be end of lower division races
If people keep putting posts on here just to offend the organization of the event, then the event just wont be run. Then that will be end of lower division races
From what I have heard the chaos was caused by poor organisation, not on the part of the organisers, but on the part of a group of paddlers who were sharing boats.
Organising events is not easy, and in some ways lower division events are harder. Paddlers don't turn up on time, catch ups are frequent, paddlers compete in more than one class, and often are sharing boats too. Somehow the organiser has to accommodate all this, and still have the event finish at a reasonable time. No-one wants events to drag on to 6.00 on a Sunday night!
Organising events is not easy, and in some ways lower division events are harder. Paddlers don't turn up on time, catch ups are frequent, paddlers compete in more than one class, and often are sharing boats too. Somehow the organiser has to accommodate all this, and still have the event finish at a reasonable time. No-one wants events to drag on to 6.00 on a Sunday night!
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PaulBolton
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:30 pm
- Location: Lincoln
I was there on the Sunday as my son was competing in the Div 4. Dave B has it exactly right - quite a few paddlers were boat sharing and entering several classes. On the first runs, the starter was accommodating and kept slotting them in, but this just caused ever increasing delays. For the second runs, they decided that anyone not ready at the start for their desiganted time had to wait till the end of the class running or take their run at the end of the day. The result? A few "boat sharers" verbally harangued the Organizer. I know - I saw and heard it and you should be ashamed - it was totally out of order. If the Organizing team are being flexible so should you be and you cannot expect to pitch up at the start when you see fit and demand a run just because you're boat sharing and in several classes.
I'd like to thank all at SCC for a very enjoyable day out.
I'd like to thank all at SCC for a very enjoyable day out.
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dizzylemon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:53 pm
- Location: south yorkshire
I was only commenting on the weekend and of my opinions, not ot criticize people or to offend people.
Normally this event is a great place for any beginner to start and for any experienced paddler to help out, this has not changed and nobody moaned at delays on the saturday, we all understand their can be problems with timing equipment, tutty etc and we all fully understand and help if we can, but the concern was down to the Sunday and the not allowing of paddlers to go down when their boat was available.They have not been penalised for sharing boats in the past, so why now?
A few years ago most of the paddlers at one of these events were made up of paddlers from another canoe club who were sharing boats, if these hadn't continued to go to these events where would the event be now?
If a paddler missed their slot, because the candian/kayak was at the other end of the course, they got the boat , joined the que and was allowed to race. This weekend we are all talking about was not fair on some paddlers, Some paddlers ( remember these events are for novices to gain experience) missed their slot, so had to do back to back runs. With novice paddlers running from end of the course to start because of the boat sharing and because they had entered K1, C1 and C2 for the fun and the experience. We saw paddlers that were exhausted, not enjoying normally a fun event. And some were put off paddling here again!! "ou cannot expect to pitch up at the start when you see fit and demand a run just because you're boat sharing and in several classes" If at entry level events like this one are limited to time, they should limit the amount of entry's they taket entry level events like this one are limited to time, they should limit the amount of entry's they take
Clubs make money from events like this one, but to put off paddlers in the future attending was it worth asking if the decisions that were made worth it. I know events are not easy to organise and have helped on quite a few events, judging, setting up etc. But we have know easier going prem events to this div 3/4 event.
And sorry for the spelling but did not have my glasses on when first post was typed, sorry to all those with perfect spelling.............
Normally this event is a great place for any beginner to start and for any experienced paddler to help out, this has not changed and nobody moaned at delays on the saturday, we all understand their can be problems with timing equipment, tutty etc and we all fully understand and help if we can, but the concern was down to the Sunday and the not allowing of paddlers to go down when their boat was available.They have not been penalised for sharing boats in the past, so why now?
A few years ago most of the paddlers at one of these events were made up of paddlers from another canoe club who were sharing boats, if these hadn't continued to go to these events where would the event be now?
If a paddler missed their slot, because the candian/kayak was at the other end of the course, they got the boat , joined the que and was allowed to race. This weekend we are all talking about was not fair on some paddlers, Some paddlers ( remember these events are for novices to gain experience) missed their slot, so had to do back to back runs. With novice paddlers running from end of the course to start because of the boat sharing and because they had entered K1, C1 and C2 for the fun and the experience. We saw paddlers that were exhausted, not enjoying normally a fun event. And some were put off paddling here again!! "ou cannot expect to pitch up at the start when you see fit and demand a run just because you're boat sharing and in several classes" If at entry level events like this one are limited to time, they should limit the amount of entry's they taket entry level events like this one are limited to time, they should limit the amount of entry's they take
Clubs make money from events like this one, but to put off paddlers in the future attending was it worth asking if the decisions that were made worth it. I know events are not easy to organise and have helped on quite a few events, judging, setting up etc. But we have know easier going prem events to this div 3/4 event.
And sorry for the spelling but did not have my glasses on when first post was typed, sorry to all those with perfect spelling.............
Every event has organisation problems. However it must be said that if the club had FULLY used the TUTTI supplied by the Slalom Commmitte none of the Saturday problems with delays should have occured. Walky talkies have never worked whenever tried out.
Having come back to attend the lower end of the sport, now following my granddchildren, I was amazed at what I saw at this event!
My big concern with what I saw over the weekend was the safety of young children. This, in my opinion, is not specifically the organisers fault, but seems to be a general change in attitudes. Whilst everyone has to start somewhere safety must be paramount.
My questions (and they all happend here):
1. Should 3 and 4 year old children be put into C2's and driven down the course. (No fittings for them??)
2. Should 6 year olds be allowed to paddle C2 with no proper fitting such that when they hit a rock they were thrown out of the canoe into the water.
3. Should a 6/7 year old be allowed to paddle down in a canoe (play boat) and with very short paddles such that he could not get a proper stroke in over the top of the side of the canoe. The end result was that catching a rock on the side of the canoe down a shute he was tipped over. His dad jumped in fully clothed to resue him - not sure why. Was he too young to be in a competition.
4. Should a lad of 10/11 be allowed to run down the course when it is only the second time he had paddled (His mothers comment) a (borrowed) canoe. The individual got caught across one of the shutes on both runs and had to be freed by rescue.
5. When a paddler has outside assistance should they not be disqualified. We did not see any disqualifications for this yet many were assised, particularly on gate 14? which caused many novice to hit the bank (sideways) and were pushed off by rescue. The paddler in 4 was also allowed to continue.
I was told it was allowed under discretion????
6. Should 'escorted' runs be allowed. Not according to my interpretition of the Year Book Page 96 Slalom Safety - Competitiors take part on the understanding that: .......
This has been confirmed as happenning at, at least, one other event and I was told it was allowed - I cannot find a rule allowing this.
A lot of clubs have a minimum membership age of 10 or 12 years. Should Canoe Slalom have a minimum age for entry. I firmly believe it should and the compromise age I would accept is 8 years old.
Finally there is that old cherry of minimum boat length. Pay/squirt boats , to a purist, they are totally out of place on a slalom course. Should there not be a minimum length - maybe consistent with the length of a competition Canoe Polo boat?
[quote] ???
Having come back to attend the lower end of the sport, now following my granddchildren, I was amazed at what I saw at this event!
My big concern with what I saw over the weekend was the safety of young children. This, in my opinion, is not specifically the organisers fault, but seems to be a general change in attitudes. Whilst everyone has to start somewhere safety must be paramount.
My questions (and they all happend here):
1. Should 3 and 4 year old children be put into C2's and driven down the course. (No fittings for them??)
2. Should 6 year olds be allowed to paddle C2 with no proper fitting such that when they hit a rock they were thrown out of the canoe into the water.
3. Should a 6/7 year old be allowed to paddle down in a canoe (play boat) and with very short paddles such that he could not get a proper stroke in over the top of the side of the canoe. The end result was that catching a rock on the side of the canoe down a shute he was tipped over. His dad jumped in fully clothed to resue him - not sure why. Was he too young to be in a competition.
4. Should a lad of 10/11 be allowed to run down the course when it is only the second time he had paddled (His mothers comment) a (borrowed) canoe. The individual got caught across one of the shutes on both runs and had to be freed by rescue.
5. When a paddler has outside assistance should they not be disqualified. We did not see any disqualifications for this yet many were assised, particularly on gate 14? which caused many novice to hit the bank (sideways) and were pushed off by rescue. The paddler in 4 was also allowed to continue.
I was told it was allowed under discretion????
6. Should 'escorted' runs be allowed. Not according to my interpretition of the Year Book Page 96 Slalom Safety - Competitiors take part on the understanding that: .......
This has been confirmed as happenning at, at least, one other event and I was told it was allowed - I cannot find a rule allowing this.
A lot of clubs have a minimum membership age of 10 or 12 years. Should Canoe Slalom have a minimum age for entry. I firmly believe it should and the compromise age I would accept is 8 years old.
Finally there is that old cherry of minimum boat length. Pay/squirt boats , to a purist, they are totally out of place on a slalom course. Should there not be a minimum length - maybe consistent with the length of a competition Canoe Polo boat?
[quote] ???
1. Yes - surely fittings would make it less safe?
2. Yes - ditto
3. Yes, though a more appropriate boat might make it a better experience for him.
4. Yes
5. No - we're talking about a div 3/4 event here, not the World Championships
6. Yes - this also happened at HPP this weekend
What is your problem with letting kids mess around in boats?
You're not part of the ROSPA mafia are you? Or do you have another agenda, and are just trying to stir up a bit of trouble for the organiser? Either way, just go away, please.
2. Yes - ditto
3. Yes, though a more appropriate boat might make it a better experience for him.
4. Yes
5. No - we're talking about a div 3/4 event here, not the World Championships
6. Yes - this also happened at HPP this weekend
What is your problem with letting kids mess around in boats?
You're not part of the ROSPA mafia are you? Or do you have another agenda, and are just trying to stir up a bit of trouble for the organiser? Either way, just go away, please.
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Seedy Paddler
- Posts: 440
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 2:00 pm
sick-citron - you need to get more involved in running these events then you may be better able to constructively support the organisers. Yes there is an issue with boat sharing but it works both ways - why should those who are trying it with boats etc have their prepartations disrupted to accomodate those that are sharing. I have seen paddlers having to get out of C- boats and stretch legs etc before the start because they are bumped back to bring in the boat sharers. Life is a compromise sometimes you can let people take their runs at any time at others you try to keep them in some semblance of order. The sport has been like that for years!
As for Clubs making money out of slaloms - you are having a laugh. My Club could make about 5 times more profit if I got the various people to donate a days wages instead of a days holiday to prepare and set-up for the event. Slalom competitions barely wash their face in terms of financial reward and carry huge risk to the organising Club. No commercial operation would take on and run a Div 3/4 slalom and plan to stay in business! Besides that half the boat sharing at our event is because the organising Club provides the craft!
seofwman - if you are coming back then you will remember that in the 70s & early 80s only the very top guys used straps and fittings. There were even motions at AGM to insist that C paddlers with straps should undertake a demo capsize to prove they could remove the straps and get out of the boat before their runs! We have normally removed straps from Club C Boats because it is safer.
Paddlers coming into the sport should use whichever boat they are used to. As the majority of boats in general white water circulation are playboats then lets encourage the crossover. Whether kids should paddle at these events is up to the parents and coaches, my two have been in boats since they were 6 months. The elder (9) has had several slalom runs and Grade 3 trips in the Topo Duo over the past two years. I need to move him on to solo so that his wee brother (6) gets more of a chance. Both love it and are keen to get into the sport.
As for "escorted" runs, they have been around for a very long time. Early escorts have included a certain Tim Baillie and a request to take a young Fiona Pennie in a team run for her first slalom at Tully (effectively an escorted run)! If getting that pair into slalom is considered bad for the sport then I think we have different objectives.
You have had a break from the sport, things have changed and moved on. If you want purism stick to Premier events. If we want to develop the sport and grow we must target and develop the potential supply markets!
Rant over - I held back as I spent the weekend running a double 3/4 slalom with lots of boat sharing; kids trying it out lots of new talent introduced to the sport silly events and lots of happy people! Included at least on first timer (J14) that is now in receipt of a promotion certificate to Div 3. She paddled her river boat (not a slalom design) won Div 4 and is now keen to try more slalom! We had several 6 year olds that loved their attempt in the Topo Duo - not a slalom class or design but great for getting kids safely into the sport. All seen to tell their parents they want to come back next year!
As for Clubs making money out of slaloms - you are having a laugh. My Club could make about 5 times more profit if I got the various people to donate a days wages instead of a days holiday to prepare and set-up for the event. Slalom competitions barely wash their face in terms of financial reward and carry huge risk to the organising Club. No commercial operation would take on and run a Div 3/4 slalom and plan to stay in business! Besides that half the boat sharing at our event is because the organising Club provides the craft!
seofwman - if you are coming back then you will remember that in the 70s & early 80s only the very top guys used straps and fittings. There were even motions at AGM to insist that C paddlers with straps should undertake a demo capsize to prove they could remove the straps and get out of the boat before their runs! We have normally removed straps from Club C Boats because it is safer.
Paddlers coming into the sport should use whichever boat they are used to. As the majority of boats in general white water circulation are playboats then lets encourage the crossover. Whether kids should paddle at these events is up to the parents and coaches, my two have been in boats since they were 6 months. The elder (9) has had several slalom runs and Grade 3 trips in the Topo Duo over the past two years. I need to move him on to solo so that his wee brother (6) gets more of a chance. Both love it and are keen to get into the sport.
As for "escorted" runs, they have been around for a very long time. Early escorts have included a certain Tim Baillie and a request to take a young Fiona Pennie in a team run for her first slalom at Tully (effectively an escorted run)! If getting that pair into slalom is considered bad for the sport then I think we have different objectives.
You have had a break from the sport, things have changed and moved on. If you want purism stick to Premier events. If we want to develop the sport and grow we must target and develop the potential supply markets!
Rant over - I held back as I spent the weekend running a double 3/4 slalom with lots of boat sharing; kids trying it out lots of new talent introduced to the sport silly events and lots of happy people! Included at least on first timer (J14) that is now in receipt of a promotion certificate to Div 3. She paddled her river boat (not a slalom design) won Div 4 and is now keen to try more slalom! We had several 6 year olds that loved their attempt in the Topo Duo - not a slalom class or design but great for getting kids safely into the sport. All seen to tell their parents they want to come back next year!
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
- Contact:
Coaching during a run is against the rules, and should be deplored, it is trying to win by unfair means and I would never condone it.
BUT at {ADVERT}Peterborough This weekend we are kean that everyone is happy and feels safe, so we have very attentive safety boats, some are so attentive that they always stay within 3 or 4 metres of the paddler, and are known to the paddler themselves. As I get older I get deafer and the weir is quite wide, so I cannot hear any words of reassurance offered to the nervous paddler.
Like 'CD' at the lower divisions, I believe it is all about 'bums in boats, and 'smiles on faces', if they do not enjoy it they will not come back, and to be honest, anyone who needs 'travelling safety' is not going to be in danger of winning. We have even arranged it when the paddler has not asked for it, but looked very wobbly in practice.
I did hear an appocraphal story of a slalom sprint down HPP, where div 3 paddler entered, but had not even paddled HPP before. The organiser happened to mention this two two top paddlers, who 'happened' to be at teh start when the tyro went down (after doing their own runs), and went down with him, ensuring he got a finish, and a smile. If this was true, I would want to ciongratulate and thank the organiser and the paddlers, not castigate them. But I was not there, so what do I know
See you all this weekend, unless you are in Scotland.
BUT at {ADVERT}Peterborough This weekend we are kean that everyone is happy and feels safe, so we have very attentive safety boats, some are so attentive that they always stay within 3 or 4 metres of the paddler, and are known to the paddler themselves. As I get older I get deafer and the weir is quite wide, so I cannot hear any words of reassurance offered to the nervous paddler.
Like 'CD' at the lower divisions, I believe it is all about 'bums in boats, and 'smiles on faces', if they do not enjoy it they will not come back, and to be honest, anyone who needs 'travelling safety' is not going to be in danger of winning. We have even arranged it when the paddler has not asked for it, but looked very wobbly in practice.
I did hear an appocraphal story of a slalom sprint down HPP, where div 3 paddler entered, but had not even paddled HPP before. The organiser happened to mention this two two top paddlers, who 'happened' to be at teh start when the tyro went down (after doing their own runs), and went down with him, ensuring he got a finish, and a smile. If this was true, I would want to ciongratulate and thank the organiser and the paddlers, not castigate them. But I was not there, so what do I know
See you all this weekend, unless you are in Scotland.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
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PaulBolton
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:30 pm
- Location: Lincoln
Here's the converstaion I had with my 10 year old:
"Joe, would you rather fall out of a slalom boat with the risk of getting a bruise or stay at home with your Play Station, get fat and die of a heart attack."
"I'd definately risk the slalom Dad, the thought of a cardio medial interaction concerns me greatly"
Well, there you go, debate over!!!
"Joe, would you rather fall out of a slalom boat with the risk of getting a bruise or stay at home with your Play Station, get fat and die of a heart attack."
"I'd definately risk the slalom Dad, the thought of a cardio medial interaction concerns me greatly"
Well, there you go, debate over!!!
The young man who had more "experinced paddlers" following him down the course on Sunday was at his First slalom event and in his practice run had been pinned very badley at the second shutte and had to be rescued by two div 1 paddlers on the water and the Chair of the jury from the bank. he was shouting for help while under the water. this would have put most young people off.
I think after that he was entitled to have a boat following down the course. As he did get on and do his runs. If you noitced the people following him did not help him but only offered the same advice as any body on the bank side will do at at Div 3/4 event.
I think after that he was entitled to have a boat following down the course. As he did get on and do his runs. If you noitced the people following him did not help him but only offered the same advice as any body on the bank side will do at at Div 3/4 event.