Re-Run Resolution - for discussion

g_c1 · Post by **g_c1** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:04 am

I would say poles swinging due to being hit deliberatley by a previous competitor should not be counted as a reason for a re run, this i feel because it is hard to reward re runs for swinging poles because where do you then draw the line? how much of a swinging pole do we reward a re run too etc?

However the paddler that has hit the pole in frustration should be noted and be put on a warning for bad conduct (if 1st affence) or punishied ie disqualification? if it is a repeted performance?

I think also that if possible the paddler should be consulted before and after a protest. Both for them to clearlly explain there thoughts and then be told the outcome of the protest as well after consultation with judges.

Dan Goddard

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:19 am

I agree with Dee, that Hindrance can be other than paddler, but that is easier to spot, and I called it Course Hindrance in the 'Not normally given'. Suppose could add it to the normally given as well for clarity. My intention was, that if a dog jumps on your back deck (happened at a div 4) you are eligable for a rerun, if you go off course and find lots of bailer twine in your way, you are not normally eligable.

Anne puts it well in "They would then discuss rationally with the paddler to explain why and how they reached the decision." I believe that when possible all complex protests should be discussed with the paddler intially, and results discussed as well as posted.

I also agree with Dan, normally moving gates are part of the sport. I might want to make an exception from the guidance if a paddler smashes gate 20 and the following paddler is on gate 19. . But these are only Guidance.

The next round will have big disclaimewrs that these are guidance only, so keep the comments coming in.

Don Raspin · Post by **Don Raspin** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:28 pm

Thanks Colin for promoting some relevant discussion.
In the days when slalom was purely a recreational activity, which you enjoyed on a few weekends in the summer then forgot about as you went back to the day job, it didn't matter if the Judges were amiable old codgers who did their limited best to see fair play. But for many competitors in the Premier Divs it is a dedication for which they spend many hours training to travel at speed avoiding poles, hung over turbulent water, by MILLIMETERS. However it seems that we still have to rely on many of these amiable old codgers, some of whom demonstrate little understanding of the precision which is the essence of a premier paddler's repertoire. If the notes for guidance do nothing more than encourage judges to understand the competitor's perspective (eg. that a violently swinging pole on a tight split gate over a big hole is an affront to his right to an unhindered run at a carefully designed course) they will have achieved something towards 'putting paddlers first'.

Nick Penfold · Post by **Nick Penfold** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:57 pm

Judging slalom is not about "understanding the paddler's perspective" Don, not at any level. It's about applying the rules of the sport honestly and to the best of our ability. None of us are infallible, but some of us "amiable old codgers" are rather good at it, and without the "amiable old codgers" who turn up to race after race to "do their limited best to see fair play" we would not have a sport, let alone a European K1M Champion.

-Lindsey- · Post by **-Lindsey-** » Thu May 15, 2008 9:50 am

I think this is relevant to the discussion as it involves re-runs. At the weekend (HPP 1 on Sunday) I was whistled off after going back to gate 13 (this involved quite a lot of eddy crossing because it was right above the loop in pool). Before the whistle blew i had already moved out the next paddlers way so i wouldn’t get in her way. Coming down the loop in pool she missed gate14, she said this was because she thought she had been whistled off! After coming down she dropped way down behind me in the eddy, so i carried on with my run. When i got down to the finish she never appeared after me at the bottom. I'm not sure what happened but i was told she had got off the water. She got a re-run, i'm not really sure why as i did not touch her boat and i was never in her way, i don't know why she got off the water. On the re-run she when on to win the race. I don't mean to be horrible to her or anything like that! But obviously i was a little annoyed as i don't think it was fair.
Lindsey.

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Thu May 15, 2008 12:31 pm

I think this is a tricky one. As soon as you're within a gate or 2 of a previous competitor you have to start watching them to try and gauge closing speed and if the situation is safe etc. The natural result is that your concentration is diminished and trigger points etc get missed. On a fast course like HPP, I can see the jury having little choice but to give a competitor the BoD. I can't see why she didn't finish though, getting off like that can really confuse control.

Kazz · Post by **Kazz** » Thu May 15, 2008 12:50 pm

I witnessed this, bib 9 did not impede bib 8 in any way, she had moved out of the way before the whistle was blown and when bib 8 dropped very low in the eddy continued her run, I'm not sure why she was awarded a re-run, lets hope it wasn't for impedement as it didn't happen. As for saying she thought she had been whistled off and therefore missed a gate surely she must know the rules regarding 'whistling off' if she is paddling at the top of div 1 I agree with Paul to some extent about diminished concentration in these situations but it effects all paddlers equally, you shouldn't get a re-run for losing your concentration ??? ???

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:52 pm

I saw this also and would have to agree that there seemed no justification for a re-run. All water under the bridge now (quite literally actually!) but Lindsey should draw some comfort from the support shown here for her situation. Its a tough call for judges because, as pointed out above, a lot happens very quickly on fast moving water. Press on Lindsey and beat the competition at another event! It is this sort of motivation that may spur you on to get even - fair and square

Trudi · Post by **Trudi** » Sat May 17, 2008 9:53 am

I too was at the race and saw what happend as the rules say if you are whistled off you have to stay out of the way of the next paddler even if they have dropped low. Sorry Linsdey, they were correct to give number 8 a re-run, This has happen to my daughter twice this year as a older paddler followes her down she has been whistled off twice, the second time the next paddler then missed the next gate and one other gate after that, so my daughter had been held back for no reason. but she did not complain and accepted that the rules are the rules.

Kazz · Post by **Kazz** » Sat May 17, 2008 10:39 am

I'm sorry Trudi rules are the rules when correctly applied however bib 9 did stay out of the way, she also was attempting to negotiate all of the gates both before and after the incident. As Spiderman so correctly points out 'its all water under the bridge now' Bib 9 you should be proud of the way you conducted yourself, I was impressed, and incidently I have no connection with either the paddler or her club.

-Lindsey- · Post by **-Lindsey-** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:40 pm

Thanks Peter and Kazz

. I had no idea so many people saw! Then again i guess i was there quite a while! haha.. I still came 7th though from my 1st run, which had a 50 as well!

aries · Post by **aries** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:34 pm

Lindsey, I saw your run too and thought you made the right decision. No 8 should not have been given a re-run and you were out of her way in plenty of time. I wonder if she'd have finished her run if she hadn't missed the gate after the drop and dropped low on the up gate. I heard her coach shouting at her to carry on with the course for 'practice' for her re-run. Its a good job its 3 wins or 5 good results to get promoted when things like this change the results of a race, I feel sorry for the person who got bumped to 2nd place.

Slow Paddler · Post by **Slow Paddler** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:51 am

I also saw the incident & felt a re-run should not have been given.

She didn't even attempt the gate at the top of the office, the second paddler was low in the eddy & not in the way, but to get off the water shows incredibly bad sportsmanship (lucky for her I wasn't on the jury on the Sunday).

To find out she had won with the re-run is very annoying, unfortunately that's the way slalom goes sometimes.