Below is a copy from the World Class Statement on C2 J18 Selection from 22/4/08.
"Please Note: In accordance with the published policy there will be an additional opportunity to qualify a further junior C2 at the June Premier race in Nottingham.
The International Panel may consider the inclusion of an additional C2 by looking at the top finishing junior C2 not already selected regardless of the previous selection order at
this June Premier race. The International Panel may consider additional selection based on reference to performance standards."
Below are the Performance standards as applied to the Selection Policy of 2008.
"Definition of minimum performance standards for 2008 GB Teams for (age in year in question)
C2
U18 (18) aggregate score <140%
U17 (17) BSRS <144%
U16 (16) BSRS <150%
U15 (15) BSRS <150%
U14 (14) Ineligible due to ICF regulations
% criteria will be strictly applied in the case of last year U18 boats.
Where age group % are applied, the rule is only applied within the top 3 boats (4th place boats and below will not be taken into the team above boats in the top three who have not made %)"
So the confusion arose yesterday when one J18 Boat "won" the aggregate race between those competing for the third boat in the GB Junior C2 Team and another Junior Boat which posted a faster time in a single run.
One coach told the fastest single run crew that they were selected. Another coach told both crews that they would be considered by the Selection Panel and a decision will be made on Tuesday.
On reading the statement of 22/4 it should be the winning C2 crew that is put forward for consideration, I would say.
The Best Single Run Result cannot apply to this race as there has to be a percentage consideration. As the fastest GB Kayak was not competing at this race, even if the BSRR achieves percentage, it is really void in this respect.
Furthermore the Selection Policy of 2008 clearly states that the BSRR rule only applies if the boat in question has achieved at least 3rd place. A BSRR cannot leap frog a boat that has finished in 3rd place but not achieved aggregate percentage.
One crew was always going to be disappointed yesterday as it was a "race off". Coaches have raised the hopes of one crew by interpreting the rules of the policy which should not be applied to this race. By telling both crews that they are going forward to the Selection Panel softens the blow a bit but there should have been a point when the wording of the statement was referred to.
As far as "Past Performance" is concerned these two crews appear to be evenly matched but yesterday one crew beat the other in the aggregate race so won their right to be considered.
International Race Selection requires paddlers to be consistent. Two runs with the best aggregate score.
This is a matter for interpretation and the Selection Panel is faced with a dilema as the coaches have given advice which is contrary to the published statement. Let us hope the Panel makes a decision based on the statement otherwise I fear that this will end up in appeals and consume time which the crews need for training.
Wild card C2 Selection HPP Yesterday - CONFUSED?
Since when did selection ever make sense?! The selection criteria, especially for C2's has always been 'flexible' to say the least. I don't see why they even chose to have a wildward race, what were the other three selection races about? and if you are going to do that for the C2's then surely you should for all other classes. Every year there are issues regarding selection and whether decisions favour certain paddlers or groups of paddlers. Slalom Canoeing is an Olympic sport and in my opinion it is disgraceful that the rules regarding selection are twisted so often. Perhaps if rules were laid out simply (including what happens in extraordinary circumstances) and decisions made on results of selection races alone then the sport would dissillusion fewer paddlers, particularly juniors who often seem to get caught up in competitions between coaches rather than the slalom racing.
just want to say a few things about the last post.
'since when did selection ever make sense?' - well, i think a huge majority of the time! applying objective criteria to a sport as complex and variable as canoe slalom is a very difficult job. a lot of sports don't bother and just 'pick teams' against truly unknown criteria. selection policies have evolved much over the years, to plug little holes and cracks that are sometimes exposed as it seems there are many 'extraordinary circumstances' that no-one ever thought of. i think most people would agree, that they are better than they were and getting better at selecting the right athletes as the sport becomes more complex.
the wildcard c2 selection (i believe) was conceived to allow crews formed in the aftermath of junior selection to race for a c2 spot. this is because some individuals would have been focussing on their 'first choice' class at junior selection, but have something to offer in c2 as well. this is exactly what happened yesterday.
and maybe i am naive, but i just don't see juniors being caught up in coaching rivalries. all coaches are employed with the aim of producing results for the country, via their paddlers. every single one of the coaches i know are dedicated to doing this in a positive way, so i'm afraid i just don't agree with this cynical allegation.
'since when did selection ever make sense?' - well, i think a huge majority of the time! applying objective criteria to a sport as complex and variable as canoe slalom is a very difficult job. a lot of sports don't bother and just 'pick teams' against truly unknown criteria. selection policies have evolved much over the years, to plug little holes and cracks that are sometimes exposed as it seems there are many 'extraordinary circumstances' that no-one ever thought of. i think most people would agree, that they are better than they were and getting better at selecting the right athletes as the sport becomes more complex.
the wildcard c2 selection (i believe) was conceived to allow crews formed in the aftermath of junior selection to race for a c2 spot. this is because some individuals would have been focussing on their 'first choice' class at junior selection, but have something to offer in c2 as well. this is exactly what happened yesterday.
and maybe i am naive, but i just don't see juniors being caught up in coaching rivalries. all coaches are employed with the aim of producing results for the country, via their paddlers. every single one of the coaches i know are dedicated to doing this in a positive way, so i'm afraid i just don't agree with this cynical allegation.
This is a hard topic.
I would of thought that
"Where age group % are applied, the rule is only applied within the top 3 boats (4th place boats and below will not be taken into the team above boats in the top three who have not made %)"
Would mean that leapfrogging of boats cannot take place?
By leapfrogging i mean thouse that have made persentages cannot be taken above thouse that have beaten them in selection?
I think this line "The International Panel may consider additional selection based on reference to performance standards." Is the line under question maybe?
The policy has said it will look at the top boat but then afterward has this line. But later on in the policy it has said that you cannot select over the winner of the class? A tad confusing?
This is just my interpretation of the rule and not who i think is the better boat(s) and who i believe should go.
Dan Goddard
I would of thought that
"Where age group % are applied, the rule is only applied within the top 3 boats (4th place boats and below will not be taken into the team above boats in the top three who have not made %)"
Would mean that leapfrogging of boats cannot take place?
By leapfrogging i mean thouse that have made persentages cannot be taken above thouse that have beaten them in selection?
I think this line "The International Panel may consider additional selection based on reference to performance standards." Is the line under question maybe?
The policy has said it will look at the top boat but then afterward has this line. But later on in the policy it has said that you cannot select over the winner of the class? A tad confusing?
This is just my interpretation of the rule and not who i think is the better boat(s) and who i believe should go.
Dan Goddard
''The International Panel may consider the inclusion of an additional C2 by looking at the top finishing junior C2 not already selected regardless of the previous selection order at
this June Premier race''
Seems very clear the event was Premier and therefore aggregate therefore the top C2 pair should be selected.
I agree that coaches are dedicated to producing the best paddlers to represent our country but they are going to be biased towards their paddlers and I agree that the paddlers are now caught up in what will be a battle of coaches and their 'interpetation' of the rules.
I dont think that percentages can be used in this scenario as I am fairly sure that one of the C2crews already selected didn't make their percentages at any of the selection events
this June Premier race''
Seems very clear the event was Premier and therefore aggregate therefore the top C2 pair should be selected.
I agree that coaches are dedicated to producing the best paddlers to represent our country but they are going to be biased towards their paddlers and I agree that the paddlers are now caught up in what will be a battle of coaches and their 'interpetation' of the rules.
I dont think that percentages can be used in this scenario as I am fairly sure that one of the C2crews already selected didn't make their percentages at any of the selection events
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dizzylemon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:53 pm
- Location: south yorkshire
hi everyone
i do agree with some of the comments about the C2 selection as why do you have to do another race to see who gets through to be selected.
after the junior selections races were done i understood that the top three places made it through but this did not happen the first two did but the third place crew did not.so what was the point of having selection races and spending all that money to compete in the races just to find that you still did not make it . why dont they just turn and say who they want to go through and save everyone alot of money hard work and dissapointment.as far as i can see there is to much canoe politics going on and i speak for alot of people that are saying the same thing.the sport is getting more exspensive enough with fuel cost going up so why mess people about.
this is my view thankyou for reading
i do agree with some of the comments about the C2 selection as why do you have to do another race to see who gets through to be selected.
after the junior selections races were done i understood that the top three places made it through but this did not happen the first two did but the third place crew did not.so what was the point of having selection races and spending all that money to compete in the races just to find that you still did not make it . why dont they just turn and say who they want to go through and save everyone alot of money hard work and dissapointment.as far as i can see there is to much canoe politics going on and i speak for alot of people that are saying the same thing.the sport is getting more exspensive enough with fuel cost going up so why mess people about.
this is my view thankyou for reading
Dizzylemon - you obviously havn't read the selection policy - it would be worth doing so before making such comments! It s not just about being in the top thre, it is about being in the top three AND reaching performance standards.
The reason a third C2 was not selected following the selection races was that only 2 boats made the required performance standards i.e. percentages. However as C2 is a development class the Selection Panel has the discretion to give those developing paddlers that didn't make the team a "second chance" by designating a race where a 3rd boat - if they reached perfomance standards could be selcted.
Congratulations to the Marshalls who gained the 3rd place in the junior team by reaching the required percentages. Your dedication and training has paid off, enjoy your racing at the Junior Worlds and Europeans it is great that at junior level we can field a full team of c2's - the first time for many years.
The reason a third C2 was not selected following the selection races was that only 2 boats made the required performance standards i.e. percentages. However as C2 is a development class the Selection Panel has the discretion to give those developing paddlers that didn't make the team a "second chance" by designating a race where a 3rd boat - if they reached perfomance standards could be selcted.
Congratulations to the Marshalls who gained the 3rd place in the junior team by reaching the required percentages. Your dedication and training has paid off, enjoy your racing at the Junior Worlds and Europeans it is great that at junior level we can field a full team of c2's - the first time for many years.
In support of my sport....
I think GB canoe slalom operates a very fair selection process, and has done for many years. (I have been racing GB selections since 1993!)
Selection policies are published well in advance and are adhered to. Discretionary selection by a panel is the source of politics and possible abuse/favouritism in many sports - we do not have this, and I think the sport is healthier because of it. Selection to GB teams is ALWAYS based on performance.
I think some people may be getting confused between GB Team selection and selection onto the funded squads. (This is a trickier situation and must include some discretion to ensure the continued future development of talented young athletes who are ill/injured or have a bad day at selection events - which is always going to happen frequently in our very difficult sport)
I have been fortunate enough to speak to canoe slalom athletes from many countries and even athletes from other sports. In comparison, I have found our selection to be very professional and completely fair! Some of the selection processes that others have to go through are ridiculous - I even know 1 developed European nation which has STILL not published an Olympic selection policy for 2008!!!
In GB, if you make the top 3 and you make the percentage criteria (which are generally quite generous in my opinion), then you make the team. Simple as that.
The appropriate training throughout the year and then a good performance on race day will ensure you are selected... nothing else!!!
Train hard --> get fast --> get selected.
I think GB canoe slalom operates a very fair selection process, and has done for many years. (I have been racing GB selections since 1993!)
Selection policies are published well in advance and are adhered to. Discretionary selection by a panel is the source of politics and possible abuse/favouritism in many sports - we do not have this, and I think the sport is healthier because of it. Selection to GB teams is ALWAYS based on performance.
I think some people may be getting confused between GB Team selection and selection onto the funded squads. (This is a trickier situation and must include some discretion to ensure the continued future development of talented young athletes who are ill/injured or have a bad day at selection events - which is always going to happen frequently in our very difficult sport)
I have been fortunate enough to speak to canoe slalom athletes from many countries and even athletes from other sports. In comparison, I have found our selection to be very professional and completely fair! Some of the selection processes that others have to go through are ridiculous - I even know 1 developed European nation which has STILL not published an Olympic selection policy for 2008!!!
In GB, if you make the top 3 and you make the percentage criteria (which are generally quite generous in my opinion), then you make the team. Simple as that.
The appropriate training throughout the year and then a good performance on race day will ensure you are selected... nothing else!!!
Train hard --> get fast --> get selected.
hi
its is a good thing that selection for the GB teams are on performance.
however i have noticed that the younger the C2 crew the less they have to perform as they have to achieve a lower percentage. i also know that for the J16's there percentage is off their best run unlike for the Under 18's which have to achieve their percentage off the aggregate. this means that the younger c2's can be selected off a lucky run.
this is wrong and should be changed as all the C2's are competing at the same race, against the same people so should be at the same standard.
by james ibbotson
its is a good thing that selection for the GB teams are on performance.
however i have noticed that the younger the C2 crew the less they have to perform as they have to achieve a lower percentage. i also know that for the J16's there percentage is off their best run unlike for the Under 18's which have to achieve their percentage off the aggregate. this means that the younger c2's can be selected off a lucky run.
this is wrong and should be changed as all the C2's are competing at the same race, against the same people so should be at the same standard.
by james ibbotson
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dizzylemon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:53 pm
- Location: south yorkshire
It was in my racing memory that even Senior Men's Kayak selection had regular controversy in the interpretation of the rules and Discretionary places. This seems thankfully to be a thing of the past...through experience. As far as C2 is concerned there have been a number of selection decisions made that I would disagree with including only selecting 2 boats though I do understand the percentage criteria. As far as Junior Selection is concerned this is probably the first time ever that they have had more boats than places and may have got caught up in the excitment of having a gaggle of Junior C2s and decided that they maybe could try and select the best crews by "bending" the interpretation. If they continue to have the luxury of having a fight to win places then over time I am sure that they will develop a more robust and clear selection policy and stick to it....roll on more british C2s.