Another advantage of having a limited number of single events is that most paddlers will make an effort to get to at least 7 events, to ensure a reasonable chance of getting their best possible ranking, allowing him/her to blow out at a couple of events. In contrast to the suggestion of DJBerriman, this means each event is more competitive, since you know that nearly all the paddlers competing that year will be at every event. So far this year 95 division 1 K1M have raced at least once, but I don't think that any one event has had more than 60 paddlers (without going through the results).
Because the overall number of events will be lower, it will be easier for most people to be able to rearrange their work/social life to fit around the race weekends, which negates the problem that some people can only make certain weekends.
Cost of Fuel - Singles v Doubles
But not everything can be rearranged - try telling the GCSE exam boards to rearrange their exam dates because of the slalom racing calendar. We'll be missing the Washburn next weekend, not because it's a single, but because it clashes with a scuba diving trip arranged by the school, and then there was the event that clashed with duke of edinburgh assessment, and the one that will clash with a nephew's wedding.
I'm all for doubles but not by reducing the number of events! It's hard enough to find one's that we are free for as it is.
I'm all for doubles but not by reducing the number of events! It's hard enough to find one's that we are free for as it is.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
Dave - I take your point but there is no proof either way as far as I can see.
Both your idea (less events, less opportunity to race but hopefully people manage to rearrange their life to suit and make it more competitive) and mine (more events, more opportunities to paddle for those who are keen and more flexibility for the others so they can continue to race) are not based on statistical fact just assumptions and I guess that is my issue with this whole topic. If I can be proved wrong with cold hard facts then great I'll accept it.
You could argue that something is stopping the other 65 or so paddlers currently ranked in Div1 from paddling. if we could encourage them to race more often (and that clearly wouldn't be by having less events) there would be more competition. Basically something like 40% of Div 1 paddlers are yet to race this season!
As Dee says not everything can be re-arranged, thus with 9 or less events per year if 4 clash with something else then that only leaves 5.
As well as things like Dee states many paddlers like myself and others I know can not attend some events as we are running lower ranking events on the same weekend. Its always a hard choice which to do believe me. It amazing how many Div 1's clash with Div3/4's. Many small Slalom clubs struggle as its the Div 1's that provide the coaching, safety etc for the paddlers they are trying to encourage into the sport.
What is always stated is that if we have more doubles then we will have less events. So If we have 4 doubles rather than 2 then we may only end up with 7 events rather than 9.
I agree with Dee lets have more doubles but not less events.
Purely my opinion.
But its a good discussion and there are clearly different points of view and many different options/ideas hopefully this is constructive and useful to the committee.
I note that the entry for the Div2 at Washburn is very low, I think it was 18 K1M out of 82 when I looked in comparison to 55 Div1 K1M on the Sunday. Worrying! Where have all the Div2 paddlers gone? I guess thats another discussion.
But I note there are nearly twice as many Div1 Officials and Div1 Open paddlers on that day. Perhaps stating the case for more events and doubles!!!
Both your idea (less events, less opportunity to race but hopefully people manage to rearrange their life to suit and make it more competitive) and mine (more events, more opportunities to paddle for those who are keen and more flexibility for the others so they can continue to race) are not based on statistical fact just assumptions and I guess that is my issue with this whole topic. If I can be proved wrong with cold hard facts then great I'll accept it.
You could argue that something is stopping the other 65 or so paddlers currently ranked in Div1 from paddling. if we could encourage them to race more often (and that clearly wouldn't be by having less events) there would be more competition. Basically something like 40% of Div 1 paddlers are yet to race this season!
As Dee says not everything can be re-arranged, thus with 9 or less events per year if 4 clash with something else then that only leaves 5.
As well as things like Dee states many paddlers like myself and others I know can not attend some events as we are running lower ranking events on the same weekend. Its always a hard choice which to do believe me. It amazing how many Div 1's clash with Div3/4's. Many small Slalom clubs struggle as its the Div 1's that provide the coaching, safety etc for the paddlers they are trying to encourage into the sport.
What is always stated is that if we have more doubles then we will have less events. So If we have 4 doubles rather than 2 then we may only end up with 7 events rather than 9.
I agree with Dee lets have more doubles but not less events.
Purely my opinion.
But its a good discussion and there are clearly different points of view and many different options/ideas hopefully this is constructive and useful to the committee.
I note that the entry for the Div2 at Washburn is very low, I think it was 18 K1M out of 82 when I looked in comparison to 55 Div1 K1M on the Sunday. Worrying! Where have all the Div2 paddlers gone? I guess thats another discussion.
But I note there are nearly twice as many Div1 Officials and Div1 Open paddlers on that day. Perhaps stating the case for more events and doubles!!!
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
- Contact:
Old stagers like me remember teh hey day of slalom, when there were hundreds of paddlers as events, and we had to bring in the limit on the number of entries.
Totally unscientific, but I recall that there were less events, so I made more effort to get to them. Now there is a bit of a feeling, that if I miss one, there will be another along in a moment, so I am not particularly bothered. This leads me to the same sort of conclusions as Dave. Less events, each mean more so people make more effort to get there, and we end up with bigger fields.
The 'ease' of missing an event, planning to hit another can also contribute towards losing padddlers. I have not paddled C1 or K1 this year, for the above reasons, (and various family matters). It will not e long before it is just 'oh well that's anotehr season gone, pehaps next year. . . If I did not have a club attachment it would be very easy to just drift away, and there is another old fogie gone (stop cheering you lot!
)
So, personal view based on memory, less events = each one means more = try harder to get there = more of the division turns up.
Regular racing was acheived by going to out of division events and racing, thus getting ready for the next division and keeping in touch (aka gloating) with those left behind. Remember we used to ask for AND GET judging deposits.
Totally unscientific, but I recall that there were less events, so I made more effort to get to them. Now there is a bit of a feeling, that if I miss one, there will be another along in a moment, so I am not particularly bothered. This leads me to the same sort of conclusions as Dave. Less events, each mean more so people make more effort to get there, and we end up with bigger fields.
The 'ease' of missing an event, planning to hit another can also contribute towards losing padddlers. I have not paddled C1 or K1 this year, for the above reasons, (and various family matters). It will not e long before it is just 'oh well that's anotehr season gone, pehaps next year. . . If I did not have a club attachment it would be very easy to just drift away, and there is another old fogie gone (stop cheering you lot!
)So, personal view based on memory, less events = each one means more = try harder to get there = more of the division turns up.
Regular racing was acheived by going to out of division events and racing, thus getting ready for the next division and keeping in touch (aka gloating) with those left behind. Remember we used to ask for AND GET judging deposits.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
There is certainly no plan for the slalom committee to go back to 9 div 1's, or to reduce significantly more at present but we need to at least maintain the status quo - therefore increasing doubles will mean possibly loosing venues to achieve that.
The idea put forward re Washburn I feel is a good one but we need to put it to the club! also have one or two other ideas but it will mean less venues/weekends but the same number of races.
I will endevour to do some sort of survey of Div 1 paddlers at the next race I can get to - possibly the HPP in September, see what that throws up!
The idea put forward re Washburn I feel is a good one but we need to put it to the club! also have one or two other ideas but it will mean less venues/weekends but the same number of races.
I will endevour to do some sort of survey of Div 1 paddlers at the next race I can get to - possibly the HPP in September, see what that throws up!
I am not sure what the case is with the men but I know of some women that are waiting for demotion before they will start paddling again. It is not the single events that are putting them off more the water...djberriman wrote:You could argue that something is stopping the other 65 or so paddlers currently ranked in Div1 from paddling. if we could encourage them to race more often (and that clearly wouldn't be by having less events) there would be more competition. Basically something like 40% of Div 1 paddlers are yet to race this season!
There are also Div 2 women who have said they will not paddle again until next year just in case they are promoted!
Canadian Paddler/Anne
I'm not sure that we can extrapolate actions from the "hey day of slalom" to the current day.
Not only has slalom changed but while we were looking the other way so did the rest of life. When we were students we had grants/fees paid/support from the union to enter races etc. It was rare for students to work in term time (paid work that is, although come to think of it......). Now most students I know of work at weekends as well as the holidays.
I don't know how representative Forbes is, but he has far more things on the go than I did as a teenager and I was one of the busy ones.
Even as adults I think we have more things going on than the previous generation; I don't mean we work harder but our lives are more varied and require more juggling to fit everything in.
Those at the top end of div 1, aspiring to prem and beyond, may choose to put kayaking above everything else. However I suspect, from talking to people - no scientific proof, that a good 50% or more of div 1 attend the races primarily for fun. Reduce the number of events and they will still only come to those that fit in with their lives and if this means they get demoted away from the better water then they will just drop out of the sport.
In terms of numbers of events we also need to consider geographical spread. Being in the bottom right hand corner means most events are a long way. We have been to Tully, but with an 11hr drive each way I'm a bit reluctant. No doubt those in Scotland feel the same about Shepperton.
My own belief is that the more events and the more doubles we have then the more paddlers will be drawn into the sport.
I'm not sure that we can extrapolate actions from the "hey day of slalom" to the current day.
Not only has slalom changed but while we were looking the other way so did the rest of life. When we were students we had grants/fees paid/support from the union to enter races etc. It was rare for students to work in term time (paid work that is, although come to think of it......). Now most students I know of work at weekends as well as the holidays.
I don't know how representative Forbes is, but he has far more things on the go than I did as a teenager and I was one of the busy ones.
Even as adults I think we have more things going on than the previous generation; I don't mean we work harder but our lives are more varied and require more juggling to fit everything in.
Those at the top end of div 1, aspiring to prem and beyond, may choose to put kayaking above everything else. However I suspect, from talking to people - no scientific proof, that a good 50% or more of div 1 attend the races primarily for fun. Reduce the number of events and they will still only come to those that fit in with their lives and if this means they get demoted away from the better water then they will just drop out of the sport.
In terms of numbers of events we also need to consider geographical spread. Being in the bottom right hand corner means most events are a long way. We have been to Tully, but with an 11hr drive each way I'm a bit reluctant. No doubt those in Scotland feel the same about Shepperton.
My own belief is that the more events and the more doubles we have then the more paddlers will be drawn into the sport.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
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PaulBolton
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:30 pm
- Location: Lincoln
I agree with Dee. More events via more doubles will equal greater participation. Today, people need as much flexibility as possible. I also don't understand why more Div 1s is seen as very, very bad for the sport. I can understand the promotion issues, but cannot this be remedied by simply adjusting the promotional system?
I do think there's a tendency to live in the past and crave the packed events of the earlier 80s (I was competing then!). Perhaps though, it would be a useful exercise to start with a blank piece of paper and no baggage - how would you design slalom for 2009 if all bets were off? I take my son to lots of Div 3s and often the entries struggle to get into double figures per main class. This cannot be healthy for the sports long term prospects.
I do think there's a tendency to live in the past and crave the packed events of the earlier 80s (I was competing then!). Perhaps though, it would be a useful exercise to start with a blank piece of paper and no baggage - how would you design slalom for 2009 if all bets were off? I take my son to lots of Div 3s and often the entries struggle to get into double figures per main class. This cannot be healthy for the sports long term prospects.
Unless more div1 racing days are allowed then more doubles=less events=bigger gaps=huge gaps when you can't make a race.
You can't have a Prem and div1 event on the same day because of the number of paddlers. Doubles with div1/2's on both days tends to mean long judging stints (div1 only on both days would be just as bad for judging, and a lot less sociable).
Perhaps those complaining of petrol costs should start doing a few judges runs in Prem or div2 events the day before or after the div1 race. The more judges there are, the shorter the stints, its free, fun, gives something back to the sport, and might even help their div1 runs. More paddlers from a club can attend a mixed division weekend, reducing fuel costs/head, and making it more sociable.
You can't have a Prem and div1 event on the same day because of the number of paddlers. Doubles with div1/2's on both days tends to mean long judging stints (div1 only on both days would be just as bad for judging, and a lot less sociable).
Perhaps those complaining of petrol costs should start doing a few judges runs in Prem or div2 events the day before or after the div1 race. The more judges there are, the shorter the stints, its free, fun, gives something back to the sport, and might even help their div1 runs. More paddlers from a club can attend a mixed division weekend, reducing fuel costs/head, and making it more sociable.
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
- Contact:
Dee you cant say that the bottom half of Div 1 do not ut kayaking first as a) div 1 has CANADIANs in it as well, so they put canoeing above kayaking and
b) I got flamed for suggesting that div 1 has an equivalence with the old div 2, which ahd a large proportion of 'div 2 dossers' people who were happy to stay in div 2, enjoyed the water that was paddled on (in those days div 2 was washburn, Llandyssul etc) and the main aim was to have fun and beat one another, not to get to div 1 (the top division then). any resemblance to people now or ever in div 1 is a product of your own imaginations
Bearing this in mind, perhaps it would bne instructive to look at the number of div 2s back then.
But to me a bigger problem is the number of div 3/4 events, there are so many that they are definatley treated like busses - there will be another along shortly, and a div 3 K1W class of four is big. Hm is that cigar smoke and a whisper of removing the divisional restriction on events
b) I got flamed for suggesting that div 1 has an equivalence with the old div 2, which ahd a large proportion of 'div 2 dossers' people who were happy to stay in div 2, enjoyed the water that was paddled on (in those days div 2 was washburn, Llandyssul etc) and the main aim was to have fun and beat one another, not to get to div 1 (the top division then). any resemblance to people now or ever in div 1 is a product of your own imaginations
Bearing this in mind, perhaps it would bne instructive to look at the number of div 2s back then.
But to me a bigger problem is the number of div 3/4 events, there are so many that they are definatley treated like busses - there will be another along shortly, and a div 3 K1W class of four is big. Hm is that cigar smoke and a whisper of removing the divisional restriction on events
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
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Non paddler
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:13 pm
- Location: Salisbury
The title of the thread is asking if the cost of fuel should alter our view of the singles / doubles balance. I think we shall see transportation cost being more and more a factor in people’s decision whether to attend a race or not. For those paddlers living close to the Midlands travel to Nottingham / Bala / Washburn/ Tees is now a lot less than those of us who live in the South. And certainly the skewed nature of this year’s Div 1 calendar is a financial challenge in September and October!
Different people have different objectives of what they want out of their slalom weekends through personal preference or their stage in development. Some want to race, some want water time, some want to develop race preparation and peaking, some just like catching up with friends. I do not think we should develop a view of what the calendar should be based on just one objective and what we think “serious” paddlers should be doing, this would be too restrictive.
If an event is not able to fulfil a person’s objective fully then they will start to make the call it is not worth the money - given the high cost of transportation. Once that starts to happen we risk losing more people from the sport. For example for some paddlers racing is important and doubles highly valued, I am aware of Div 1 paddlers who no longer wish or can afford to travel long distances for singles and hence do not race five times per season and actually feel the calendar does not let them race 5 times. Cutting the number of events down to 9 will not in any way make it better for them.
A survey would be good to better understand people’s motivations, but I think it is even more important to reach out to those who are not racing often rather than those who are attending events. Get their view of what would bring them back.
As with most I do not know what the answer is, I am just a bit fearful that the cost issue may be a tipping point for many and if it needs more doubles in the short term to keep some people in the sport we should consider this if the organising clubs are prepared to run them (still leaves the judging problem to solve!)
However is the cost issue the push we need to start thinking more radically about the calendar? I know John Sturgess has proposed on this forum ranking open events as standard and others have proposed regional events. For example, given the comments on some Div 2s fearful of a lot of the Div 1 quality water, ranking open events will give them the opportunity to continue to compete on a regular basis and move up to more challenging water in their own time.
Different people have different objectives of what they want out of their slalom weekends through personal preference or their stage in development. Some want to race, some want water time, some want to develop race preparation and peaking, some just like catching up with friends. I do not think we should develop a view of what the calendar should be based on just one objective and what we think “serious” paddlers should be doing, this would be too restrictive.
If an event is not able to fulfil a person’s objective fully then they will start to make the call it is not worth the money - given the high cost of transportation. Once that starts to happen we risk losing more people from the sport. For example for some paddlers racing is important and doubles highly valued, I am aware of Div 1 paddlers who no longer wish or can afford to travel long distances for singles and hence do not race five times per season and actually feel the calendar does not let them race 5 times. Cutting the number of events down to 9 will not in any way make it better for them.
A survey would be good to better understand people’s motivations, but I think it is even more important to reach out to those who are not racing often rather than those who are attending events. Get their view of what would bring them back.
As with most I do not know what the answer is, I am just a bit fearful that the cost issue may be a tipping point for many and if it needs more doubles in the short term to keep some people in the sport we should consider this if the organising clubs are prepared to run them (still leaves the judging problem to solve!)
However is the cost issue the push we need to start thinking more radically about the calendar? I know John Sturgess has proposed on this forum ranking open events as standard and others have proposed regional events. For example, given the comments on some Div 2s fearful of a lot of the Div 1 quality water, ranking open events will give them the opportunity to continue to compete on a regular basis and move up to more challenging water in their own time.
[quote] You can't have a Prem and div1 event on the same day because of the number of paddlers.
Why couldnt you have them on the same day its not as if theres that many people turn up for a div 1 these days, on average 45 K1 men (highest entry so far being Graveyard 65 K1 Men), 20 K1W and approx 10 C1 and 4 or 5 C2. if the events were to run on time there shouldnt be a problem unless you are restricted to time on a water release. As it has been said in the days gone bye Div 1 had very large entries.
The only reason i can see that you couldnt have a Div1 and Prem on the same day is that the standard in Div 1 on the whole is not that high and people would be moaning about how hard the course is or how big the water is, i must agree with canadian paddler that the standard of a majority of todays Div 1s are of yesteryears Div 2 standard. Something must have been done right back then because there has been a big drop off in people competing in slalom since.
Why couldnt you have them on the same day its not as if theres that many people turn up for a div 1 these days, on average 45 K1 men (highest entry so far being Graveyard 65 K1 Men), 20 K1W and approx 10 C1 and 4 or 5 C2. if the events were to run on time there shouldnt be a problem unless you are restricted to time on a water release. As it has been said in the days gone bye Div 1 had very large entries.
The only reason i can see that you couldnt have a Div1 and Prem on the same day is that the standard in Div 1 on the whole is not that high and people would be moaning about how hard the course is or how big the water is, i must agree with canadian paddler that the standard of a majority of todays Div 1s are of yesteryears Div 2 standard. Something must have been done right back then because there has been a big drop off in people competing in slalom since.
Carlr wrote:if the events were to run on time
re Prem and div1 on the same day: A big 'IF'.
People moan as it is if there are long gaps, and late finishes. Imagine if there was no time for their second run...or a 9pm finish on Sunday. Official practice would be cut, giving paddlers even less water time...
Judging by the votes in the div1 weekend poll, responses to the doubles v singles question are not one sided, and also sparse. Is it apathy, or do the majority of paddlers not want any events cancelled?
Personally all my judges stints this yr have been less than an hour, and very enjoyable, as have my runs (just about under an hour as well
) I would recommend them to any paddler wanting a higher paddling:diesel ratio (PDR) or PPR.Mixed division weekends also lead to more spectators, which adds to the atmosphere.
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
"I take my son to lots of Div 3s and often the entries struggle to get into double figures per main class.
Could this be beause there are to many races and to much choice, surely less races would mean more entries!"
Nope exactly the opposite, most paddlers at this level will not travel very far. We are trying to get new youngsters into the sport and for whatever reason (cost, time, other commitments etc) their parents won't travel very far. Its a very expensive 'day out' to some, juggling that with their other commitments means we need plenty of local events for 3/4's so we can get them hooked!
Its unfortuntate that there are paddlers not paddling as they fear promotion or want demotion. If thats why people aren't competing then we should encourage them to Judge at a level they feel comfortable whilst they gain more experience.
We also have to look (as many have stated) at why we restrict paddlers in this way. Once promoted they are stuck in no mans land (unwilling to race at the higher level but unable to enter the lower level events that they enjoy until such time as they have gained more experience). An open class or non-divisional structure would help with this.
Could this be beause there are to many races and to much choice, surely less races would mean more entries!"
Nope exactly the opposite, most paddlers at this level will not travel very far. We are trying to get new youngsters into the sport and for whatever reason (cost, time, other commitments etc) their parents won't travel very far. Its a very expensive 'day out' to some, juggling that with their other commitments means we need plenty of local events for 3/4's so we can get them hooked!
Its unfortuntate that there are paddlers not paddling as they fear promotion or want demotion. If thats why people aren't competing then we should encourage them to Judge at a level they feel comfortable whilst they gain more experience.
We also have to look (as many have stated) at why we restrict paddlers in this way. Once promoted they are stuck in no mans land (unwilling to race at the higher level but unable to enter the lower level events that they enjoy until such time as they have gained more experience). An open class or non-divisional structure would help with this.