Veterans Proposal

Phil Stevo · Post by **Phil Stevo** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:59 pm

As part of the vets working party I've consulted with lots of Vets this year and competed at the European 'Senior' Championship in Czech.

So I think it's about time to formalise a proposal for this year's ACM.

The following proposals have been prepared to try to encourage participation. Therefore the proposals below are intended to enhance the Vets competition without hacking off any existing competitors:

1. Run vets age bands in all divisional ranking events, british open and vets championship. Only one prize still for top DV at each ranking event.

2. Have a vets league in the age bands as with juniors (we already have a volunteer to compile the results). Top paddler at end of year listed in year book for each age band.

3. The age bands to be V35, V45, V55 (these are the bands used for the European Champs).

4. Continue with purple bibs as long as there are enough competitiors to make the competition viable.

One question I still have and would welcome comments on is: as the purple bibs are opting out of promotions and demotions should the overall winners (prem/1 and 2/3) also be listed as veteran champions in the year book?

jke · Post by **jke** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:23 am

I'm confused. Presumably proposals 1 to 3 are for DVs.

For me the purple bibs continue to be an anachronism* for those who want to race out of division. But maybe that's OK if when racing in their "correct" division (however that is sorted) they race as a DV. What I'm trying to say is that all vets should be ranked as a DV but that they can claim V status for other races. I don't think that's been considered before. In some ways it would be like having an Open class.

*The biggest difference I've seen this year was at HPP Div 1 on 11th May there was 1 V, and 20 DV out of a total of 51.

Small point in proposal 3. In other sports I've raced in, running, triathlon, orienteering, the bandings were described as M35, W35 etc.

On your question, considering my comments above, ranking purple bibs becomes redundant. In the yearbook, DVs should be listed in their division as now (with DV replaced by M35, W35 etc.) And the national vets champion listed - from the vets championship, run on championship ie. P/1 water.

John Kent

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:28 am

"And the national vets champion listed - from the vets championship, run on championship ie. P/1 water."

So ruling out any entries from Div 2,3 and lower ranked Div 1s. Yes they (we) will never win but if you run it on P/1 water it will just be the top 10 or 15 vets racing. Consider those in the lower divisions. Just cause its not P/1 water can't mean it can't be fun or challenging. At the end of the day P/1 paddlers should still be able to beat the 2/3 vets on any water. Is one race a year really too much for you to ask you to race on lower grade water?

If you want the above then just scrap the championship competition as it will be a waste of time and take the highest ranked Vet from the current ranking system and declare them the Champ.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:53 am

Phil - that all sounds good.

John - "Small point in proposal 3. In other sports I've raced in, running, triathlon, orienteering, the bandings were described as M35, W35 etc. "

See no need for this we don't race together so like J14, J16 etc we don't need a gender. Not really bothered what it is called but might be nicer if we are referred to as Seniors eg S35, S45, S55 etc. Feel decrepit enough as it is.

End of the day its about canoeing and seeing if you can beat your mates/rivals. The proposed ranking system will probably add to the rivalry and allow for a better idea of how you are doing relative to your age and give the older Vets more incentive to race. Lets not get too serious about championships, trophies etc as how ever nice it is to win the trophy and get listed in the year book I'd suggest no one really pays much attention!

Phil Stevo · Post by **Phil Stevo** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:23 am

Yes John proposals 1 -3 are for DVs and calling the band M35 W35 etc. makes sense to me.

There are a merry band of purple bibs, particularly the div 2/3s who enjoy what they are doing so why hack them off to a point where they may leave the sport?

I think Duncan is right about leaving the water levls at the Llandysul, Matlock and Fearnilees for the Vet/Junior Champs and with the new proposal you will get Prem/Div1 Championship racing at the British Open.

Nick Penfold · Post by **Nick Penfold** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:45 pm

Sorry Phil, I haven't grasped your fundamental aim. Is it:
- to continue to run Vets as separate races, and introduce age bands, or
- to run all vets as DVs within the Divisional events, tagging them V35, V45, V55 as we currently tag J12, J14 etc and DV?
If the first, there seems to be even less competition for each paddler. If the second, I don't see how you can have distinctive Vet bibs.

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:49 pm

My two penneth:-

Like it or not, we are Vets

The term "Senior" is already taken by the "younger" paddlers anyway

There are Veterans of both genders so we need to allow for this of course.

Veteran age bands to correspond with Europe is the drum I have been banging for a few years now! Hurrah! At last the drum has got loud enough

Concur with 1, 2 & 3. I know nothing about purple bibs so will leave comment in that regard to those who will be affected.

One concern I have relates to the British Open and Class C International. As a plain old "V" I am able to compete in this event whereas a "DV" needs to effectively qualify by ability. This was a primary reason (along with paddling in both Div 1 and Prem events on a single weekend) for electing to be "V" as opposed to "DV". At risk of barring myself from this event, is it right that anyone of any class, age or gender should be able to compete in such an event where the remainder are all qualified to do so? If so, should it continue and how would such Vets be distinguished from others, if at all, when being enabled to enter?

But overall Stevo, brilliant! Looking good and now racing in the right direction at long last

PS - Where can I see the results of the recent European Vets Champs please?

jke · Post by **jke** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:57 pm

Phil Stevo wrote:There are a merry band of purple bibs, particularly the div 2/3s

I don't agree. In all 2/3 races (certainly since 10th May where I have checked back) there are few if any competitors in Vets. And in all cases their result was within the corresponding division so why not race in that division. That includes the div 1 on 11th May. Having a separate Vets race adds to the organisational overhead, and just dilutes the main event - certainly in div 2/3 where there aren't that many these days.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:29 pm

jke wrote:
Phil Stevo wrote:There are a merry band of purple bibs, particularly the div 2/3s

I don't agree. In all 2/3 races (certainly since 10th May where I have checked back) there are few if any competitors in Vets. And in all cases their result was within the corresponding division so why not race in that division. That includes the div 1 on 11th May. Having a separate Vets race adds to the organisational overhead, and just dilutes the main event - certainly in div 2/3 where there aren't that many these days.

We have a Vet in our club who would have been promoted to Div 1 if it were not for the Vet scheme. He has opted to stay in Div 2 because there are few local Div 1 events and it would be too costly to travel to others. This is what has appealled to him about being a Vet and hence why he does not race in that Division.

Nick Penfold · Post by **Nick Penfold** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:02 pm

Pete
The British Open has been open to all Div 1s for two or three years now. I'm sure you would maintain a healthy place in Div 1, so you don't need to be a Vet for that. There is an issue if you want to do Prem events - which as a P/1 Vet you can, but as a Div 1 you couldn't.
By the way: it will only be possible to keep Vets' leagues if Vets either all race in the main Divisions or they all race separately, because otherwise you're not comparing apples with apples. And if Vets all race separately it will be very dificult to know how to compare results from say Div 2 races with Div 3 races, but that will be somebody else's problem.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:12 pm

Yes S is taken but not S35, S45, S55 but as I said I don't really care what it is called in truth. Just thought I'd be kind to a few Vets. Guess that counts me out from having senior moments then and no chance of blaming it on being blonde either!

"There are Veterans of both genders so we need to allow for this of course."

I just don't see why you need M35 and W35 we don't have it any J12, J14 etc etc. If you look at the current J leagues they are listed as Men and then Women like all our other rankings not M12, W12.

So confused as to why people think M35, W35 is required unless you are saying the overall veteran league table will be mixed.

I'm assuming Phils idea is that DV's will be banded from their respective division results which is how the current J leagues on the website are done with Prem, then Div1, then Div2, then Div 3 paddlers so V's will not be part of the Veterans league as it will not be possible to correlate the results as effectively they are racing out of the divisional system.

Phil Stevo · Post by **Phil Stevo** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:19 pm

Nick,

Just to clarify, the proposal is for DVs to continue in the national ranking events but to be age banded just as we do with juniors.

There is no need for seperate bibs. The DVs will just have to register their age bands as the juniors do.

Phil Stevo · Post by **Phil Stevo** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:29 pm

Peter,

I've cleared out my e-mail inbox this very day, deleting the Senior European results - not pretty reading for me I'm afraid.
It was a great event though.

However I'm sure if you ask Jim Croft nicely he will send you a copy.

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:16 am

If we did away with Vets status could there possibly be some way of protecing divisional status for vets if requested? They could be registered as VP so everyone knows.

I feel there would have to be restrictions on prizes once reached promotion points and not used for points calculations if they win.

Any thoughts...............

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:02 pm

I can't see that one working Anne.

I would feel any system where they could earn points or prizes etc would be very confusing for organisers and the whole point of a DV is that they have opted in and that a V has opted out.

A VP paddling up a division would be likely to get caught by newly promoted paddlers that can be very frustrating especially if it happens a few events on the trot. A VP potentially paddling down a division could cause lots of issues. Basically they would be taking points/wins off other paddlers until they reach promotion points each year and would also end up with a high bib number each year much to the frustration of some paddlers who care about such things.

It would be a pain for organisers too as results are often unclear from one event to the next (following weekends) so how do you decide whether a paddler has actually achieved a certain level of points etc.

The only thing I can think of if you really want to get rids of Vets would be to have an open at every event, thus excess judges and 'Veterans' could enter any event as could any other paddler who thinks they are capable (perhaps allowing upcoming stars to gain some experience). I don't see any need for prizes etc, the extra income would be useful to clubs.

I guess as usual this shows the problems caused by a strict divisional system. Hmm do I smell cigar smoke?