6.4. Veterans

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:36 pm

Jerry Tracey wrote:Spiderman's conception of the sport and attitude to paddling are so radically different to mine that it is probably pointless to try to enter into debate. However, I need to challenge his view that those of us who paddle in slalom primarily for personal growth and self-fulfillment have no right to an opinion. I pay the same entry fees as he does and therefore have just as much right to comment and have my views considered. Those who know me will be aware of my enthusiasm and long-term involvement. I plan to continue to greatly enjoy slalom paddling and I am disappointed that Spiderman appears to feel that I and paddlers like me have no place in the sport or on the water. I will, of course, be appearing on future start lines, within whatever format is available, in accordance with my ranking status. I look forward to meeting Spiderman there!!

Hi Jerry. I would never deny anyone the opportunity of an opinion. Also, I am not saying you have no place on the water. I just dont see the point. But thats from my perspective of course. If you have your reasons for non-competing in a competition, fair enough, but excuse me if I cannot relate to it. It is the weight of a persons opinion that I am referring to more than the opinion itself. If you admit to not being a competitor, why should you be in a position or feel that your opinion on the rules of that competition should outweight those of a competitor?

I accept we all have our reasons for attending events but, if at the end of the day you are not really bothered what your result is...well....I just dont understand it.

No offence intended here to you ar anyone else...we are all paddlers (at least we have this in common) so I do not propose falling out with anyone over it. I just wish to see the sport getting back to its standard of yesteryear and the present situation is not going to see that. So don't get me wrong here Jerry. This is a sport essentially for competitors all paddling their hearts out to see how they fair against others. I see nothing wrong with trying to provide a better framework for that to be fairly undertaken.

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:38 pm

PaulBolton wrote:I'm a DV and did 31 races in the season just finished, primarily because I have a 10 year old I take to Div 3 events. Indeed, I only did 5 races in my division as my priority is the Youf. Competing at Vet would be great for me, but there is no way I'm turning up to "compete" in a one or two man class. Where's the satisfaction in winning that? I can't remember seeing more than 2 Vets at any event last year so what's the point? In my view, Vets is a completely broken and, therefore, a pointless system. I'd rather judge - there's more competition, it's free and you get the satisfaction of lending a hand too!!

That pretty much says it all !!!!!!!!!

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:46 pm

I don't know why proposal 6.4 still clings onto the same way of calculating Veteran points which doesn't allow a fair comparison with DV paddlers. Its easy to see what a Veteran would have achieved in a race by adding one paddler and looking up the points on a spreadsheet.

http://www.geocities.com/ican_change/Sl ... ulator.htm

Actually the excel version is easier to use because you can freeze frames whilst moving along the columns and rows.

http://www.geocities.com/ican_change/SlalomPoints.xls

Seedy Paddler · Post by **Seedy Paddler** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:08 pm

I think the issue comes about by what is a veteran and how do you define the Veteran Champions.

To my mind that is fairly simple, anyone over 35 is a Veteran.

The Championships are decided through 2 methods:
1/ At a pre-ordained event in a similar fashion to the British Open etc. This exists and is published in the Calender

2/ From the overall Ranking Lists based on results over the season.

As a "DV" you may compete in both

As a "Veteran" you may only compete in #1

Up to the individual but as we all claim not to want the prizes it shouldn't be an issue.

I raised the issue of DV prizes as we are a significant sector in the system circa 26-28%. Veterans are to be awarded prizes by the rulebook so why not DV paddlers. What is galling is seeing a Veteran prize awarded to the only "Veteran" paddler whilst half a dozen DVs some of whom were faster get no recognition. If you opt out of the system and get protected ranking status then it is no longer a fair comparison. At that point it becomes each to their own. If you want comparison with the majority of old foggies paddle DV and accept the risks of promotion/demotion. If you want to protect your status and enjoy a run at any event then elect for Veteran.

The method of awarding the Veteran Trophies should be published and the recipients recorded (along with their age ??? )

CD

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:31 pm

Perhaps the prize on each day should go to the top over 35 whether they are DV's or V's?

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:00 pm

Munchkin wrote:Perhaps the prize on each day should go to the top over 35 whether they are DV's or V's?

Aha! Now we are getting somewhere. Yes Munchy, I agree with that principle of course as I am saying there is just no sense in splitting V and DV when it comes to performance on the day on the same course.

But is it then fair for me, for example, to be paddling my heart out against a fellow Veteran who is almost two decades younger than me? Equally, what value is there for a "young" Veteran in a win against paddlers who are so much older? It seems to work both ways.

Surely all of us wish to be pitched against fair and reasonable competitors so that when we win we can have a sense of acheivement and when we lose we do not feel cheated and dispondent.

I maintain that age banding the very, very broad Veteran class (hopefully just a single class) would go a long way to acheiving this. If Seedy is correct in his percentage calculation of the numbers of Vets involved, this has to be a welcome improvement by many Veteran paddlers.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:07 pm

I think care needs to be taken with any proposed bandings though in principle I do not really mind whether they are introduced or not but there is a 15 year grouping with the Seniors...

FatBoy · Post by **FatBoy** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:09 pm

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the whole point of having a divisional system is this puts you in a competition with your peer group? No need to come up with elaborate age bands?

To me the separate Vet competition at P/1 level was always for those vets with the skills to compete on Prem courses, but no longer the fitness. Not entirely sure where 2/3 vets come in, maybe somebody can remember, but I can perhaps see reaching a certain age and not wanting to get trashed every week on a div 1 course.

Can somebody sort this mess out in the next 13 months before I have to join you lot? ???

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:57 pm

One of the arguments for not having lots of age bands for veterans is the cost of the trophies, which is why last yr I suggested a prize for 35-49 yr olds and another for 50+ to replace separate prizes for DV and V paddlers. Racing in the Vet league isn't about the trophies anyway, indeed when I spoke to one div2/3 Vet last yr, he said he was sick of trophies, and had a bag of them in the loft.

RogerWisdom · Post by **RogerWisdom** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:55 pm

I agree (with earlier posts – it's taken me a while to be accepted as a poster!) that one veteran class (in Divisional races) covers too wide an age range. But given entries nowadays I think 5, or even 10, year bands wouldn't work. Why not Divisional Veteran status for paddlers 35 to 49 and Senior Divisional Veteran status for paddlers 50+? That might produce viable competition at most events.
Roger
PS: I switched from paddling as a DV in 2007 to a Vet bib in 2008 as I realised I was no longer competitive in Div 2 (nor keen enough to train seriously). Competing against DVs closer my age might have encouraged me to postpone "taking the Purple".

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:17 pm

I can see there are issues about the way the system works, but all this fuss about prizes baffles me. At slaloms I've run and attended most of the DV/Vs that are handed a prize give them back (assuming they've waited for prize giving)! The same even applies to some (older) juniors.

Also any rules relating to numbers of prizes apply to entries received 15 days before the start of the event so at div 2/3/4 probably wouldn't even come into play. I generally do give DV/V prizes but only if the numbers competing warrant it and I am not going to start giving prizes to one-man categories at least not for adults (J12s are, I think, different - they really are children).

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:59 pm

Of course there is no point giving a prize to one single +50 paddler in a single competition but it would be nice to know who was the best +50 paddler at the end of the yr.
Perhaps the ranking compilers could at least look up the DOB's of the top DV paddlers in Prem and div1 to see if Peter is the best +50 paddler, as he probably is. To award an end of yr prize to the best +50 paddler, only reveals the winners age. Other +50 paddlers could remain anonymous. This is the problem with a senior vet category at each competition - you'd need everyone's permission to make their age (over 50 status) known.

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:19 am

At the start of 2008 there were no Prem K1M over the age of 50 - one turned fifty part way through the year, so it depends how you define DV50. I'm not sure that vets points are directly comparable to prem/div 1 points

jke · Post by **jke** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:20 am

katonas wrote:... only reveals the winners age. Other +50 paddlers could remain anonymous. This is the problem with a senior vet category at each competition - you'd need everyone's permission to make their age (over 50 status) known.

I don't know what all the fuss is about. In all other sports I've raced in - running, cycling, orienteering, there has been age banding and it was taken as read.

And we looked forward to our next birthday so we could do "better" again!

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:23 pm

Its seems that everyone who is expressing a view here to scrap Vets are those who will be unaffected by the change. I also find it insulting that I apparently have no worth and "faff" around down a course.

I would suggest that those who are affected are asked and others butt out. I have spoken to most 2/3 Vets this year. All are happy with the current situation and see no need for it to change. Why are people who are unaffected so passionate about changing it?