6.4. Veterans

[djberriman]

"Veterans will be separately ranked based on the points gained
for each division for which they enter and the number of events to countfor the ranking position will be the same as for that division.
Veterans may compete in any division up to that in which they were previously ranked and may be ranked in more than one division."

Unless I misunderstand the above this doesn't seem very fair on lower ranked Vets. Surely this means that if a prem Vet paddler manages to race at a enough lower division events then he/she will take the lower division 'prize' as well as being ranked in Prem Vets.

[Spiderman]

I thought that.

I remain baffled at how people can paddle in lower divs and keep winning without getting promoted as well. It seems like the Vets are being considered as non-competitors to me. Paddle at whatever division we choose, stay in whatever division we choose, its all non competition related. I Just dont get it.

IMHO all I wish to do is compete at a competitive level determined by my performance in a class or category that is relevant to my age. Is that too much to ask of the system? If I am not good enough for a specific division, I should not be entitled to paddle. If I am too good for a specific division, I should not be entitled to paddle that either? Who is it that is pushing here to take the competitiveness out of the competitive discipline of slalom? Some people have some strange ideas of what these events are run for it seems. If you are not interested in your result and just wish to attend and bimble down the course at your leisure, I just dont think that you are one who should have much of a say in how the competition is run. Primarily because you are not competing in the true sense of the word. Alternatively if you are there to do your best and race against the rest of the field, you are there for the same reason as me and the vast majority. To compete.

Having agreed this, who should you be competing against? Well, by the setup over the years this is also clear. People in the same class of boat and who are in a similar age group. Brilliant! Now we are making progress.

So what age groups do we have? J12, J14, J16, J18, 23, Senior, and ........ everyone on Gods green Earth over 35! Hmmmmm. I see a large number of combined DV's and Vets paddling in a very wide age range. That seems hardly fair and age banding seems absolutely necessary to introduce fair and reasonable competition in the over 35 category. So why oh why is this completely missed from the agenda and the only mention of changes concerning Vets is the previously mentioned wierdness?

I recently became the 2008 British Vets Champ. Whoopy doo. Even as the winner I have absolutely no idea what this means and to me it seems a wholly pointless class AND award as the divisional system is dotted with DV's who may or may not be older than me. The only thing I know is they are over 35. And none of those, some significantly better paddlers than myself, got an award for there performances, some of which are nothing short of remarkable, and this demonstrates that the entire Vets/DV system is a mess. My hope, and degree of pride in being this years Champ, is that I may actually be the fastest over 50yr old of both Vets and DV's, I dont know if I am but I'm hoping. Then, at least, when I think of my award I think that I am deserving in a so far imaginary age band of Vet in the over 50 class. The trophy was issued without not just my name on but not even a brass plate to have it engraved on! Having asked for an engraved plate it seems even that has been denied. For my own peace of mind and to make more clear to those who know me through the course of the next 12 months, I will ensure that when I make mention of this remarkable acheivement, that I add I am the over 50 Champ as I simply have no right to consider that I am the best of Britains over 35's. Not by a LONG chalk. Yet the messy Vets system will have people believing this. Ihave no idea what I will do next season or even if I will bother to compete again in such a pointless series (Vets) or such an unfair one (DV's) without sensible age banding.

I will continue to bang this drum and drag the discipline of slalom for Vets into the gutter at every opportunity NOT until "I get my own way" but until the competitors get a better standard of competition and a great degree of satisfaction from their efforts. Even if I am no longer one of those competitors. I love this sport and I love my coaching role too but I am SO disappointed at the way the rules are not being changed for the good. I now plan to attend the ACM so expect me to be there banging the same drum. Not sure what good it will do as some say its now all too late whilst others say I need to attend to be heard? Hmph! In any event, I am prepared for my time being wasted. I dont want to be accused of not doing what I can to bring change about where its needed - need being the operative term here.

PP

[Munchkin]

From the point of view of a club that will fight tooth and nail to keep the seperate events because we have Vets that do not want to get promoted for financial reasons as well as because they prefer the friendliness of the lower divisions if you want to move up and down etc why not change to be a DV and leave the vets that are happy with the system as they are?

Ps I gather from the posts here no proposal was put forward to change the system as no agreement was made about the approach so no club bothered to ask for it to be added to the agenda.

[jke]

This rule just makes things worse. What is the point of having two parallel races, one a DV and one a V? Any improvement would be to get rid of one. Call us all DV or call us all V. Let’s have age banding rather than DV and V.

Munchkin, where are all these Vets you refer to? All this fuss about Veterans is for less than a handful of competitors across both Veterans groupings who would want to retain protected status. If there are competitors (and there will be more than just Vets) who don’t want to race in a particular division or a particular event then that’s OK but let’s keep that out of the Vets argument. There are other ways of dealing with this eg. Open event.

John Kent

[Munchkin]

I think this question needs to be posed to the Division 2/3 Vets as that is the group I am hearing from but I am not sure that many frequent here.

Their view (those who have spoken to me) is that they are happy with the way things are. If you put them in a Division 2/3 level water open event then they may be "competing" against Division 1 and Prems. That is not a fair competition either.

[jke]

If you put them in a Division 2/3 level water open event then they may be "competing" against Division 1 and Prems. That is not a fair competition either.

I'm speechless.

If a paddler with protected status (ie. would normally have gained promotion to Div 1) competes in a Vets Div 2/3 race that's not fair either.

[Munchkin]

But that is something that all the Vets are aware of and therefore a choice they have made. By forcing them to change out of Vets no one has that choice.

[Spiderman]

Like I said, its just a mess. And those Vets who just wish to faff about and not compete in the spirit of good competition should not have a voice when it comes to the structure of competitive events - obviously! No other class has this type of ruling and it makes a mockery of competitive sport. If a vet does not wish to compete in a division that they properly should compete in, higher or lower, for any reason, they should stick to river running where nobody has gone to the trouble of setting up expensive timing equipment for them and poles for them to avoid. Perspective please!!

[oldandslow]

So sod all those who can't afford to travel to Scotland or Wales? Or those who spend more time ferrying their kids to events so don't have the weekends free for their own division?

[djberriman]

Still think an open class at every event would solve this.... if the objective is simply to paddle and then for ones own amusement compare your results against your friends then an open provides this and also allows for anyone else who can cope with to the water to enter whether for pleasure or training.

[Canadian Paddler]

My twopenneth - this actually has two effects:
1) Prem/1 vets will be ranked against the Prem/one event thus allowing direct comparison of DV and V paddlers at the end of the year allowing an overall vet prize to be awarded. This is already the case for div 2/3 vets

2) it seems that there is the ability to compete at any division AND get points being introduced. Currently (2/3) you can compete at any division but only get points and prizes at events above your own division. This may be unfortunate consequences of only considering prem/1 vets, where having teh ability to enter either prem or 1 and having a prem ranking and a div 1 ranking seems overkill for the number of paddlers competing (do not mention results for single paddler events! ).
If this is the case, I feel that it might be better to rank vets as div 3, div 2, or div 1, with promotion being 'offered' at end of season as in current vets, perhaps even demotion after all we get slower as we get older. . With the ability to earn points at events of your division or higher would be better. By all means split the ranking by division if you want.
Extra topic then: where does the Alan Harwood trophy go? Highest placed V/DV, highest div 2 V/DV, Highets div 2 vet?

There is no motion to scrap veterans this year, so there is not much point debating it here. Unless it gets a motion for next year. .

[Jerry Tracey]

Spiderman's conception of the sport and attitude to paddling are so radically different to mine that it is probably pointless to try to enter into debate. However, I need to challenge his view that those of us who paddle in slalom primarily for personal growth and self-fulfillment have no right to an opinion. I pay the same entry fees as he does and therefore have just as much right to comment and have my views considered. Those who know me will be aware of my enthusiasm and long-term involvement. I plan to continue to greatly enjoy slalom paddling and I am disappointed that Spiderman appears to feel that I and paddlers like me have no place in the sport or on the water. I will, of course, be appearing on future start lines, within whatever format is available, in accordance with my ranking status. I look forward to meeting Spiderman there!!

[PaulBolton]

I'm a DV and did 31 races in the season just finished, primarily because I have a 10 year old I take to Div 3 events. Indeed, I only did 5 races in my division as my priority is the Youf. Competing at Vet would be great for me, but there is no way I'm turning up to "compete" in a one or two man class. Where's the satisfaction in winning that? I can't remember seeing more than 2 Vets at any event last year so what's the point? In my view, Vets is a completely broken and, therefore, a pointless system. I'd rather judge - there's more competition, it's free and you get the satisfaction of lending a hand too!!

[Spiderman]

So sod all those who can't afford to travel to Scotland or Wales? Or those who spend more time ferrying their kids to events so don't have the weekends free for their own division?

Old...I am not being that disrespectful to anyone...Im just expressing my opinion, to which I must be entitled and if you knew me you would know I am more polite than to say your words.

Setting slalom rules has little to do with incurred expenses. We all have different circumstances I am sure, but the objective here is to place first the proper ruling and classification of the Vets class. Many are unhappy with it so it needs sorting out. My opinion is to assist this. Dont just object, provide objective criticism so the matter can be debated. So far I have read nothing that sensibly nor reasonably opposes the logic of one vet class split by age banding. Its used extensively in other sports so why should this be different?

[katonas]

"Veterans will be separately ranked based on the points gained
for each division for which they enter and the number of events to countfor the ranking position will be the same as for that division.
Veterans may compete in any division up to that in which they were previously ranked and may be ranked in more than one division."

Unless I misunderstand the above this doesn't seem very fair on lower ranked Vets. Surely this means that if a prem Vet paddler manages to race at a enough lower division events then he/she will take the lower division 'prize' as well as being ranked in Prem Vets.

6.4 is to enable a comparison between DV and V paddlers at the end of the season such as I tried at the end of the 2007 season .
http://www.geocities.com/ican_change/Sl ... nking.html

There were so few 'V' paddlers who raced in 2007, I was able to look up what they would have achieved if they were DV for each race.

When they consider this proposal I am sure they will see that it is best to rank a V paddler in the highest division they qualify to paddle in regularly.

Thus :
A 'V' paddler who races in div1 is not ranked at the end of the yr higher than a 'V' paddler who usually races in Prem (and also achieves a minimum standard eg.200 points in one race)

A 'V' paddler who races in div 3 is not ranked at the end of the yr higher than a 'V' paddler who usually races in div2.

A Prem/1 Vet who raced in a Div 2 race would not be included in the end of yr div2/3 competition if they had achieved a minimum standard in either a Prem or Div1 event.

ps. 6.3 is the recognition that the best DV paddlers deserve at last. However any trophy should have a place for names to be engraved as Spiderman points out. A trophy without a history, has lost its soul.