I thought I would ask what people thought of this proposal as it is not something I have seen discussed on here recently.
I understand the purpose of it is to slow down those girls that get to the harder water before they are ready. However, my concern is that it would put some paddlers off trying to continue beyond Div 2 because they may not have the speed against the boys but have the ability to paddle on the bigger water.
I think there are other ways of slowing down some of the promotions e.g. Increase the points required to get from Div 3 to Div 2 to 330 to match the boys 3300. If proposal 6.5 goes through this will also slow things down.
Though, in the end, who is harmed by the small number of girls getting promoted so quickly? Only them as far as I can see and it should be up to them and their club's to ensure that they get the training they need to deal with it.
As I said at the start, just after some thoughts...
In the meantime will pass on the proposal to the other Div 2 girls I know for their thoughts...
Proposal 6.7 - Changes to Women's Points
Thoughts from one of the other Div 2 girls that is not on the message board...
"I do think it's silly them changing the system, if girls are good and they get to Prem with or without experience what does it matter, if they paddle faster than those with lots of experience then why change the system, seams crazy?"
"I do think it's silly them changing the system, if girls are good and they get to Prem with or without experience what does it matter, if they paddle faster than those with lots of experience then why change the system, seams crazy?"
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
The best way to slow down promotions is to get more paddlers into the sport, thus more competition, harder to get promoted.
As Munchkin says its up to each individual (or their coach/parents) to make sure they get the experience under their belt.
Part of the blame must lie with paddlers (male & female, yound & old) if they find themselves in a division before they are 'ready'.
We can all go to easy events, get wins and get promoted but surely our goal as a paddler should be to paddle those events which challenge us so that you are prepared when you get promoted.
I've sat on enough start lines over the last 4 years bricking myself to know how that feels. Feels even better when you get to the bottom, are still upright and haven't come last!
Unfortunately I guess we all fall in to the habit of making our aim promotion rather than improving our skills.
Thats me off to HPP then!
As Munchkin says its up to each individual (or their coach/parents) to make sure they get the experience under their belt.
Part of the blame must lie with paddlers (male & female, yound & old) if they find themselves in a division before they are 'ready'.
We can all go to easy events, get wins and get promoted but surely our goal as a paddler should be to paddle those events which challenge us so that you are prepared when you get promoted.
I've sat on enough start lines over the last 4 years bricking myself to know how that feels. Feels even better when you get to the bottom, are still upright and haven't come last!
Unfortunately I guess we all fall in to the habit of making our aim promotion rather than improving our skills.
Thats me off to HPP then!
Duncan, you'd better be quick then - I think HPP closes at noon tomorrow for 3 months (approx).
As for this proposed rule change, I think I am currently in favour of it as long as the multiplier has been set at a relatively easy level, i.e. if you get all the gates and are reasonably quick then you get 100 points - result!! - but if you get a fifty for missing a gate then you get hardly any - also a result!!
I agree that as we hopefully attract more participants in to the sport of Canoe Slalom this rule change will hopefully become hyperthetical but it should still deliver the required results with those that can doing well and those that can't - don't.
After all, the other classes will all be judged on the same principle of comparing their finishing times to the K1 mens times if all the proposed rule changes go ahead, so why should K1 women be any different.
As for this proposed rule change, I think I am currently in favour of it as long as the multiplier has been set at a relatively easy level, i.e. if you get all the gates and are reasonably quick then you get 100 points - result!! - but if you get a fifty for missing a gate then you get hardly any - also a result!!
I agree that as we hopefully attract more participants in to the sport of Canoe Slalom this rule change will hopefully become hyperthetical but it should still deliver the required results with those that can doing well and those that can't - don't.
After all, the other classes will all be judged on the same principle of comparing their finishing times to the K1 mens times if all the proposed rule changes go ahead, so why should K1 women be any different.
The above is the personal opinion of Mark Shaw and does not reflect the views of either the BCU or England Slalom Committees.
I believe this motion is flawed! Is the problem that all K1W get promoted too quickly or that some cannot cope with the water in the higher divisions? I believe the latter is the real issue.
This motion actually encourages participation on easier water. K1W %'s compared to K1M are nearly always lower on tougher white water courses. Consider Div 1 K1W results at the end of season. Under the proposal the winners would gain:
HPP (Kim W) 912pts
Llandysul 1 (Charlotte L) 950pts
Llandysul 2 (Charlotte L) 1000pts
Llangollen (Helen M) 784pts
This motion actually encourages participation on easier water. K1W %'s compared to K1M are nearly always lower on tougher white water courses. Consider Div 1 K1W results at the end of season. Under the proposal the winners would gain:
HPP (Kim W) 912pts
Llandysul 1 (Charlotte L) 950pts
Llandysul 2 (Charlotte L) 1000pts
Llangollen (Helen M) 784pts
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oldandslow
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:11 pm
- Location: Peak District
Exactly... these girls cannot cope with the water in the higher divisions because they have been promoted too quickly! It is possible (like my daughter did and several girls this season), to get from div 4 to div 1 in one season, because they are fast. No fault of coach or parents... win at Stone in March; top 5 at Matlock and Sowerby in April; top 5 at Bala Mill and Llandysul in May. Hey presto! Div 1! 5 races on easy water... no coach yet, parents bemused by the whirlwind of success, happily take their little daughter to HPP to a trashing at their first div 1. They either stop paddling like my daughter or get injured because of their lack of experience, strength and skill. Only the lucky ones have a coach who has prepared them for this... for the others it's too late!
Ideally yes, we need more girls in the sport to provide the competition, failing that we have to stop these rapid promotions. The girls should not be able to win with a 50. This motion will stop it.
The original wording of the motion said div 2 and 3's it's been changed along the way. I can't see a problem with promotions from div 1 to prem.
Ideally yes, we need more girls in the sport to provide the competition, failing that we have to stop these rapid promotions. The girls should not be able to win with a 50. This motion will stop it.
The original wording of the motion said div 2 and 3's it's been changed along the way. I can't see a problem with promotions from div 1 to prem.
Life is what happens when you're making other plans.
Looking at the results only one girl got promoted from Div 4 to Div 1 in one season this year and she actually got promoted in Cardington in September after at least 11 events so not as fast as you suggested. Assuming she is your daughter she has done well in the 2 Div 1 events she has entered. I am not sure who the others Oldand Slow is talking about as there are none that I can see.
But actually yes, I do think it is the coaches fault but that is because having talked to many a person about the issue of fast promotions it always seems to be girls from that club that are of concern. They get up through the rankings to Div 1 very quickly then a number of them struggle. This is something that people outside the club have spotted so I would have though that those in the the club would have too. On that basis it should be their responsiblity to ensure that the girls are properly coached to deal with this.
Now look at it from the other side of the coin. There are some girls that are not as fast on the smaller water (and indeed some blokes) but do exceptionally well in Div 1/2 events where there is bigger water. Should they be held back because of the proposed new rules just because of a minority? They are the ones that should be getting up but are held back as it is, I think these new rules would make it impossible for them to go up. Luckily one of the girls I was thinking of in particular has just made it up but there are a few more that will hover near the top of Div 2 for a while and may one day make it or will drop out.
But actually yes, I do think it is the coaches fault but that is because having talked to many a person about the issue of fast promotions it always seems to be girls from that club that are of concern. They get up through the rankings to Div 1 very quickly then a number of them struggle. This is something that people outside the club have spotted so I would have though that those in the the club would have too. On that basis it should be their responsiblity to ensure that the girls are properly coached to deal with this.
Now look at it from the other side of the coin. There are some girls that are not as fast on the smaller water (and indeed some blokes) but do exceptionally well in Div 1/2 events where there is bigger water. Should they be held back because of the proposed new rules just because of a minority? They are the ones that should be getting up but are held back as it is, I think these new rules would make it impossible for them to go up. Luckily one of the girls I was thinking of in particular has just made it up but there are a few more that will hover near the top of Div 2 for a while and may one day make it or will drop out.
P.S. I fail to see how will this motion ensure that the girls that are promoted too "quickly" are prepared for the bigger water? Nothing in the motion forces them to enter anything other than Div 2/3 events so they can still get promoted without the necessary experience. So not only does it hinder those that should be going up but it doesn't solve the problem.
I think the proposal is because there are some events a year where there aren't the numbers of attendees in K1W to give a sensible set of points. I think as long as there are 3 ladies currently the points are allocated in the normal way, so if 3 good ladies turn up you could get rubbish points, if 3 rubbish ones turn up you could end up in a higher division very quickly!
I think if it's good enough for C2's then why not for K1W?
We'll never stop a fit superstar on flat water getting promoted "before they are ready", but we can stop freak results by low attendance.
I think if it's good enough for C2's then why not for K1W?
We'll never stop a fit superstar on flat water getting promoted "before they are ready", but we can stop freak results by low attendance.
In relation to being promoted from div1 to 4 in one season, this happened to me. The only thing i can think of that would help people this has happened to (and newly promoted div1s) is to encourage paddlers to have prior experience at some sites i.e. HPP before racing them and when they are training have a coach and safety so you know what moves to try and lines to take while feeling like if you fall nothing bad can happen.
I cannot see any results where there were only 3 Division 2 women and I would say in most events I was in there were more than 15. I note that it did happen in dIvision 3 but I have already suggested increasing the points requiring promotion from division 3.
It seems (as suggested by John in the other post) that people are making a lot of sasumptions without doing proper research...
It seems (as suggested by John in the other post) that people are making a lot of sasumptions without doing proper research...
I don't pretend to have done any research, I'm merely stating what I believe to be the case behind the proposal. However if there is at least one race in Div 3 K1W with only 3 competitors then this rule would help.
If the ratio is set right, then it won't stop many promotions, if any. I think it would be quite reasonable that any event where the winner of K1W didn't get all the gates (e.g. Sunday Div 2 at Tully this summer) then those points didn't get used for promotion. Again a correct ratio would do this (as Mark Shaw points out).
Using the same race as an example, only 9 Div 2 K1W. Not 3 as you point out, but still not many. Unfortunately only 16 K1M as well, so only slightly better stats produced by this.
As you will see from other posts I'm not in favour of deliberately slowing promotions down across the board, just that for the points system to work then there must be a good spread of ability present (within the division in question). The lower then number of competitors present the less likely this is.
The other option which may keep everyone happy (ha) is to raise the number for quorum from 3, to a more sensible number. Then apply the ratio rather than the current cumbersome rules for applying points to non-quorate races (which I guess work just fine for only 1 or 2 competitors).
I still say if applying a ratio is fine for C2 then why not C1 or K1W?
As for getting bigger water experience before getting to Div 1, yes good idea. It isn't an all encompassing statement to cover up for holes in the points system though.
The idea of raising the points level for promotion from Div 3 surely would slow all people down from rising up the divisions so I don't understand where you're coming from Munchkin?
If the ratio is set right, then it won't stop many promotions, if any. I think it would be quite reasonable that any event where the winner of K1W didn't get all the gates (e.g. Sunday Div 2 at Tully this summer) then those points didn't get used for promotion. Again a correct ratio would do this (as Mark Shaw points out).
Using the same race as an example, only 9 Div 2 K1W. Not 3 as you point out, but still not many. Unfortunately only 16 K1M as well, so only slightly better stats produced by this.
As you will see from other posts I'm not in favour of deliberately slowing promotions down across the board, just that for the points system to work then there must be a good spread of ability present (within the division in question). The lower then number of competitors present the less likely this is.
The other option which may keep everyone happy (ha) is to raise the number for quorum from 3, to a more sensible number. Then apply the ratio rather than the current cumbersome rules for applying points to non-quorate races (which I guess work just fine for only 1 or 2 competitors).
I still say if applying a ratio is fine for C2 then why not C1 or K1W?
As for getting bigger water experience before getting to Div 1, yes good idea. It isn't an all encompassing statement to cover up for holes in the points system though.
The idea of raising the points level for promotion from Div 3 surely would slow all people down from rising up the divisions so I don't understand where you're coming from Munchkin?
It would make it equal between the men and women which is fairer on the men and the jump between division 3 water and division 2 water is not much, unlike the division 2 to 1 jump. So it does not make much difference whether you are in division 3 for another event or two and as you say that is the division 3 that has fewer women at many events.
It is a shame that this was not mentioned sooner so that it could be discussed with more division 2 women as I think these are the ones that would be most affected and disadvantaged by the move.
It is a shame that this was not mentioned sooner so that it could be discussed with more division 2 women as I think these are the ones that would be most affected and disadvantaged by the move.