Promotion Suggestion - Its not all about points

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:57 am

I have been thinking about this for a while, probably mentioned it a few times too but here is my 'final' solution. Shoot it down as you see fit.

Leave the points system as it is.

Grade all events A or B.

To gain promotion 2 of the results that make up the points must come from a category A event.

Rational

Paddlers still have set achievable targets
Paddlers will have to paddle difficult events/big water to get promoted
Talented paddlers will not be obstructed
Number of paddlers getting promoted will be limited by number of category A events

Thoughts on how it might work.

Category A will consist of P/1 events for Div1, 1/2 for Div 2 and 2/3 for div 3. Other events can be selected at the start of the season by the slalom committee. Category A events should be distributed as fairly as possible (so some in Wales, Scotland and England). Number of Category A events should be set to some minimum defined in the rule book but may be increased by the SC.

Category B events will still be well attended as the points are just as worthwhile apart from the odd paddler who is only after the elusive category A, even then they might be able to better a previous cat B event thus meaning they need less at a cat A event. Overall there should be no drop in paddlers, in fact the opposite as there will be more paddlers at cat A events.

End of season event should be a CAT A event if possible to assure a good race off at the last event of the season.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:21 am

All in all yes I think this is a relatively good idea, though I would suggest that only one result has to come out of a Cat A event because until there are more Women and Canadian paddlers it will be very hard to get good points at Cat A events in these divisions which would really limit promotions even where it might not be justified.

If after a year or two of having points from 1 Cat A there is still quick promotion then change it to 2 Cat A events.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:56 pm

Can't see a reason why each class couldn't have its own requirement (1 or 2) much like the current points system if required.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:03 pm

Just thought of another positive of this.

There are quite a few paddlers who don't want to get promoted but do. With this system they can still race and be ranked high in their division (even 5 wins) but if they don't race at the Cat A events (which its unlikely they will anyway) then they won't get promoted.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:26 pm

djberriman wrote:Just thought of another positive of this.

There are quite a few paddlers who don't want to get promoted but do. With this system they can still race and be ranked high in their division (even 5 wins) but if they don't race at the Cat A events (which its unlikely they will anyway) then they won't get promoted.

I think that is a negative as they will just hover below promotion preventing others from getting points (potentially just trophy hunting) and not going anywhere. This is the one thing I think we have to prevent!!!

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:52 pm

You can't stop it unfortunately. Its only the same as racing until you are very close on promotion and then stopping or ensure you batter a few gates/miss a gate to ensure you don't get promoted.

I know a number of paddlers this year that did enough races without getting enough points to ensure they got demoted because they didn't want to race in the division they got promoted to.

Some paddlers get promoted by 'mistake' with a poor result (sometimes with a 50 on purpose) due to lack of competition. They just happen to be the 'lucky' one on the day.

It just means they can stay where they feel happy until they decide to progress or retire.

I guess it provides useful competition at the top and stops pointless promotions for paddlers who then don't race.

If it creates a bit more difficulty in getting promoted thats no bad thing as that seems to be what most people want and the rising paddlers will probably win out at the cat A events anyway in my view.

I guess its something you review if it becomes a problem. My feeling is it won't be an issue and its something that already happens.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:08 pm

djberriman wrote:You can't stop it unfortunately. Its only the same as racing until you are very close on promotion and then stopping or ensure you batter a few gates/miss a gate to ensure you don't get promoted.

Not quite the same as this would allow them to keep on racing indefinately without promotion whereas now they stop racing. Would it be fair (extreme example) for one paddler to win every Cat B event in the season but because they don't do a Cat A event they dont get promoted? Hence preventing someone else from getting the elusive 100/0 points they require for promotion?

I like this proposal (and think it is much fairer than the one that went forward to the ACM) but think that perhaps instead of them being allowed to keep going indefinately, once they have 3 good Cat B events they should only be allowed to enter Cat A events?

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:23 pm

Wish I'd never mentioned this upside.

I really can't see the paddlers I am thinking about (without insulting them) preventing anyone getting promoted. If they are winning then its only because others aren't capable of getting promoted (yet).

But as with any rule change you have to see how it goes and adapt it. Anyway there are another 10 months or so to perfect it. Anyone else care to comment?

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:24 am

Look at div 2/3 C2, where a similar situation exists, you can compete at div 2 and div 3, but must have a min number of points at div 2. Want to count the crews who only do 1 div 2 a year to avoid promotion?

Seedy Paddler · Post by **Seedy Paddler** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:21 pm

At the risk of choking on cigar smoke - why not scrap the ranking system and just let people enter at the standard of competition they want to compete at. No promotion no demotion you paddle at your own risk!

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:44 pm

djberriman wrote:Wish I'd never mentioned this upside.

I really can't see the paddlers I am thinking about (without insulting them) preventing anyone getting promoted. If they are winning then its only because others aren't capable of getting promoted (yet).

But as with any rule change you have to see how it goes and adapt it. Anyway there are another 10 months or so to perfect it. Anyone else care to comment?

In the past there have been paddlers that have been more than fast enough to race in div 1, but for their own reasons worked the system to make sure they didn't get promoted. This lead to lots of mutterings at events when they picked up the trophies and points in front of aspiring young paddlers. If this happened when the system was designed to prevent it, it will happen often when the system actually allows it.

You must think of your adaptation before making the change.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:10 pm

Hmm thats me told. Back to the drawing board.

Can't figure how you stop that one without making life difficult for paddlers, organisers and ranking offices alike.

Perhaps seedy paddler is right. Smoke? What smoke!