but if younger paddlers find it harder to get into prem, surely the criteria need to be changed.
The money needs to be spent on the athletes. If there are no paddlers in the top division, it won't be a case that the money goes unspent. Or does it?
ACM Proposal to Scrap In_season Promotion to Prem - ACM Proposal to Scrap In_season Promotio
I still don’t see the benefit of moving back to an end of season promotion from Division 1 to Premier. Assuming a paddler requires 4500 or 450 points by the end of the season to get promoted, where is the incentive to continue racing in Division 1 once you have accumulated the required number of points from 5 races. This is based on:
1) Why would a paddler pay (travel, entry fee, accommodation etc) to race, when he/she doesn’t benefit
2) A paddler can just enter as a judge for free in the Premier races once they know they have enough points for promotion
3) A paddler should always want to excel, and therefore compete against the best level
4) A paddler will only accumulate the required points if they are good enough, delaying the promotion until the end of the season is artificial if they have already accumulated the points
5) The development (and progress) of those who are good enough to be promoted mid season is halted, in order to provide competition for the rest in Division 1. That to me is not pushing our elite paddlers
There is an equivalent Division 1 race for all Premier races, so a paddler is gaining the experience of the bigger water, what they then need, is to paddle against the elite.
1) Why would a paddler pay (travel, entry fee, accommodation etc) to race, when he/she doesn’t benefit
2) A paddler can just enter as a judge for free in the Premier races once they know they have enough points for promotion
3) A paddler should always want to excel, and therefore compete against the best level
4) A paddler will only accumulate the required points if they are good enough, delaying the promotion until the end of the season is artificial if they have already accumulated the points
5) The development (and progress) of those who are good enough to be promoted mid season is halted, in order to provide competition for the rest in Division 1. That to me is not pushing our elite paddlers
There is an equivalent Division 1 race for all Premier races, so a paddler is gaining the experience of the bigger water, what they then need, is to paddle against the elite.
I'll say it agian for everyone to hear, can't we have compromise?
I agree that winning div 1 used to mean more than it does now but someone who wins 3 races in a year is ready for prem. Anyone who consistantly wins is ready for the next level. Anyone who can't achieve this should maybe be looking to race in that division until they can or wait until the end of season for promotion.
Would anyone support a motion which moves back to end of season promotions unless an athlete achives 3 wins within the season, at which point they would be promoted to the next division.
I would like to see this introduced throughout the whole ranking system, not just div 1 to prem, as i feel that this would improve the standard of the people gaining promotion and they would be better equipped to deal with the step up.
I agree that winning div 1 used to mean more than it does now but someone who wins 3 races in a year is ready for prem. Anyone who consistantly wins is ready for the next level. Anyone who can't achieve this should maybe be looking to race in that division until they can or wait until the end of season for promotion.
Would anyone support a motion which moves back to end of season promotions unless an athlete achives 3 wins within the season, at which point they would be promoted to the next division.
I would like to see this introduced throughout the whole ranking system, not just div 1 to prem, as i feel that this would improve the standard of the people gaining promotion and they would be better equipped to deal with the step up.
HaRVey said:
"Adding more complexities, does any future system no favours."
What are you trying to do then HaRVey? Many paddlers like the system as it is, why change something that isnt broken?
"Surely any advice we can take from those people working to put GB paddlers on podiums across the globe, should be taken VERY SERIOUSLY, as they do know and understand, the applications and requirements of ELITE PERFORMERS in our fantastic SPORT."
Elite performers are fine but dont forget the prem and div 1 have other paddlers as well and we cant afford to lose any of them, which will happen if you force people to compete in div 1 all year when they dont have to. i suppose you mean the GB coaches support this, but they dont have to pay! The elite performers will be fine they have the support but the rest are on their own. have you worked out how mcuh extra this will cost, especially if your not living in the midlands.
This motion is putforward by Stafford and Stone each year but has been defeated every time. Why cant you get the hint by now? Nick Penfold is right, PLEASE vote against this.
"Adding more complexities, does any future system no favours."
What are you trying to do then HaRVey? Many paddlers like the system as it is, why change something that isnt broken?
"Surely any advice we can take from those people working to put GB paddlers on podiums across the globe, should be taken VERY SERIOUSLY, as they do know and understand, the applications and requirements of ELITE PERFORMERS in our fantastic SPORT."
Elite performers are fine but dont forget the prem and div 1 have other paddlers as well and we cant afford to lose any of them, which will happen if you force people to compete in div 1 all year when they dont have to. i suppose you mean the GB coaches support this, but they dont have to pay! The elite performers will be fine they have the support but the rest are on their own. have you worked out how mcuh extra this will cost, especially if your not living in the midlands.
This motion is putforward by Stafford and Stone each year but has been defeated every time. Why cant you get the hint by now? Nick Penfold is right, PLEASE vote against this.
In reference to those who believe that funding is related to divisional status, i'm afraid that is only a short sighted and immediate view of those who are currently looking for support, the reality is support levels have always, and will always be adjusted to include the numbers that the SPORT can afford to support. FUNDING is not RELATED to how good paddlers are today, or this year; it is SIMPLY related to THE NUMBER of paddlers that can be supported in any ONE season.
Funding (for juniors anyway) is definately related to how good paddlers were in the last year, not merely on funding available. To my knowledge (and I may be wrong as I have not seen any published information) for the forthcoming year there is only ONE junior paddler being funded on the GB podium programme. This is on merit for demanding targets achieved last year and yes there is support for other juniors on the England programme, though a substantial parental contribution is required.
back to the issue - if someone is good enough for Prem why should they not be there? It is not easy to get there at all and I see no rationale for expecting someone to wait until the end of season to be promoted just so they can do a few more Div 1 races. Anyone committed enough to get themselves to Prem will be training regularly on the bigger sites anyway.
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RussJohnson
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:19 pm
- Location: Wakefield
- Contact:
funding is there to whoever can be bothered to look for it, its the same with anything.
i was sponsored when i was in division 2, and i am still a sponsored paddler 2 years later.
it might not be from sports aid or lottery funding sources but funding is funding at the end of the day and has helped buy equipment to compete at a high level.
going back to the topic that this is meant to be about
[qoute]What are you trying to do then HaRVey? Many paddlers like the system as it is, why change something that isnt broken?[/qoute]
i totally agree, the current system is fine as it is.
and as for the comment regarding paddlers not been good enough for the water in prem, isnt this abit of a pointless comment as every paddler in division 1 is capable of paddling on the same course as those in prem, i dare say that many div 2's are aswell, they mightnt be a quick down the course but they a capable on the water.
Big Water?? if you can tell me what slalom river in the UK is classed as so called Big water? didnt think we were holding our slaloms in the Alps (or similar)
i was sponsored when i was in division 2, and i am still a sponsored paddler 2 years later.
it might not be from sports aid or lottery funding sources but funding is funding at the end of the day and has helped buy equipment to compete at a high level.
going back to the topic that this is meant to be about
[qoute]What are you trying to do then HaRVey? Many paddlers like the system as it is, why change something that isnt broken?[/qoute]
i totally agree, the current system is fine as it is.
and as for the comment regarding paddlers not been good enough for the water in prem, isnt this abit of a pointless comment as every paddler in division 1 is capable of paddling on the same course as those in prem, i dare say that many div 2's are aswell, they mightnt be a quick down the course but they a capable on the water.
Big Water?? if you can tell me what slalom river in the UK is classed as so called Big water? didnt think we were holding our slaloms in the Alps (or similar)
Russell Johnson
HALIFAX Canoe Club - West Yorkshire Canoe Club
HALIFAX Canoe Club - West Yorkshire Canoe Club
Just to clear up any misconceptions from my previous posts:
The SPORT is looking to produce ELITE paddlers; My interpretation is that those people are/or should be any of the paddlers who make it into the PREMIER division. We are wanting a high quality SPORT with high demands and a high class PREMIER division. The harder it is to get into, the better the division becomes, oh and incidently the better Division 1 paddlers become.... i am supporting the aim to RAISE STANDARDS, not to stop people getting into Premier Division (it would appear some people don't see this as an important issue or don't think it would improve standards - both may be valid arguements - 'don't change what ain't broken' is not.
Funding; (From an 'In England' perspective at least) Back in 2001 World Class took over from England, they supported Junior paddlers at many levels, and in the First Year 65 paddlers in total were included (i was one of them as a J16 and Ranked 64th in PREM. (No medals were won by Junior representatives at Junior World Championships) Over the next few years the Standards for Inclusion on WCStart were gradually tightened, in the years that followed, the numbers of junior paddlers on WCStart were reduced, not because the paddlers got worse but because the amount of Money got less. Therefore, the level of the lowest paddler that got World Class support, was higher than in previous years.... this evolution continued..... Flash forward to this year just gone, 2009. We now have No World Class support for J16's (JD that was called in 2008), but we do have Medalists in the Junior World Championships, and Juniors who win PREM races, and juniors who qualify in every single level of the GB TEAM Selection, (J17, J18, U23 and Senior (as Reserves)). Oh and to HIGHLIGHT my point exactly, some of these paddlers have NO FUNDING at ALL. They are better, than ANY of the junior paddlers in 2001, and still have NO funding at all. I'm fairly certain this does explain the point; that FUNDING does change with TIME and also the RANKING SYSTEM being used. Hence if you change the RANKING SYSTEM, the critera set out for FUNDING, or inclusion onto National Governing Body Support Programme's, would also change!
My inference therefore was not to imply, that it does not matter how good the paddlers are, how well they race or what division they are in, SIMPLY - FUNDING has NO bearing on any decision to change the DIV1-PREM PREMOTIONAL SYSTEM, the only reason to change the promotion system is if there is a need to improve our sport.
Following this thought....
It is interesting that the decision to change PREM to best run counts, and the SPORT to include single pole gates, was not met with obstruction! But these were indeed a far greater FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE.
I do agree with LA LUNE, anyone who is trying to get to PREM is training to do so. So if the amount of Training required to get there is more or it becomes harder, we will be IMPROVING the PADDLERS who transfer from DIV1 to PREM, and we are not trying to get MORE people in PREM, we also aren't trying to make it easy to get to PREM.... we are trying to make BETTER paddlers in PREM.
For the comments made that refer to dropping out of the sport; Why would PREM paddlers drop out if we change the system? .... as far as i can see they are already in PREM.... Why would division 1 numbers drop, or people stop coming to division 1 races?..... this could happen because those paddlers now don't see themselves being able to reach PREM?! (I'm afraid like it or not there are those in this SPORT for ENJOYMENT and those for PERFORMANCE, neither division is Exclusive, but PREMIER is about those paddlers at the pinacle of the sport, and hence it IS/SHOULD BE...HARD TO GET INTO.
Historically many paddlers have in the past set their targets simply at getting into PREM, and on achieving this they leave, STOP, race no more. Surely the harder you make it, the longer this process takes, and the longer those people are in the SPORT, also the better those people are in achieving promotion to PREM.
Lastly, In a random moment of Philosophy...
The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. (Michelangelo Buonarroti)
The SPORT is looking to produce ELITE paddlers; My interpretation is that those people are/or should be any of the paddlers who make it into the PREMIER division. We are wanting a high quality SPORT with high demands and a high class PREMIER division. The harder it is to get into, the better the division becomes, oh and incidently the better Division 1 paddlers become.... i am supporting the aim to RAISE STANDARDS, not to stop people getting into Premier Division (it would appear some people don't see this as an important issue or don't think it would improve standards - both may be valid arguements - 'don't change what ain't broken' is not.
Funding; (From an 'In England' perspective at least) Back in 2001 World Class took over from England, they supported Junior paddlers at many levels, and in the First Year 65 paddlers in total were included (i was one of them as a J16 and Ranked 64th in PREM. (No medals were won by Junior representatives at Junior World Championships) Over the next few years the Standards for Inclusion on WCStart were gradually tightened, in the years that followed, the numbers of junior paddlers on WCStart were reduced, not because the paddlers got worse but because the amount of Money got less. Therefore, the level of the lowest paddler that got World Class support, was higher than in previous years.... this evolution continued..... Flash forward to this year just gone, 2009. We now have No World Class support for J16's (JD that was called in 2008), but we do have Medalists in the Junior World Championships, and Juniors who win PREM races, and juniors who qualify in every single level of the GB TEAM Selection, (J17, J18, U23 and Senior (as Reserves)). Oh and to HIGHLIGHT my point exactly, some of these paddlers have NO FUNDING at ALL. They are better, than ANY of the junior paddlers in 2001, and still have NO funding at all. I'm fairly certain this does explain the point; that FUNDING does change with TIME and also the RANKING SYSTEM being used. Hence if you change the RANKING SYSTEM, the critera set out for FUNDING, or inclusion onto National Governing Body Support Programme's, would also change!
My inference therefore was not to imply, that it does not matter how good the paddlers are, how well they race or what division they are in, SIMPLY - FUNDING has NO bearing on any decision to change the DIV1-PREM PREMOTIONAL SYSTEM, the only reason to change the promotion system is if there is a need to improve our sport.
Following this thought....
It is interesting that the decision to change PREM to best run counts, and the SPORT to include single pole gates, was not met with obstruction! But these were indeed a far greater FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE.
I do agree with LA LUNE, anyone who is trying to get to PREM is training to do so. So if the amount of Training required to get there is more or it becomes harder, we will be IMPROVING the PADDLERS who transfer from DIV1 to PREM, and we are not trying to get MORE people in PREM, we also aren't trying to make it easy to get to PREM.... we are trying to make BETTER paddlers in PREM.
For the comments made that refer to dropping out of the sport; Why would PREM paddlers drop out if we change the system? .... as far as i can see they are already in PREM.... Why would division 1 numbers drop, or people stop coming to division 1 races?..... this could happen because those paddlers now don't see themselves being able to reach PREM?! (I'm afraid like it or not there are those in this SPORT for ENJOYMENT and those for PERFORMANCE, neither division is Exclusive, but PREMIER is about those paddlers at the pinacle of the sport, and hence it IS/SHOULD BE...HARD TO GET INTO.
Historically many paddlers have in the past set their targets simply at getting into PREM, and on achieving this they leave, STOP, race no more. Surely the harder you make it, the longer this process takes, and the longer those people are in the SPORT, also the better those people are in achieving promotion to PREM.
Lastly, In a random moment of Philosophy...
The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. (Michelangelo Buonarroti)
If it ain't broke don't fix it!
I can see where Andy is coming from and it works fine should you want to be in/on the GB squad, but most people paddle for the enjoyment and the prize is winning and working up the divisions, the aim maybe to get into Prem at the end of the day.
So let the World Class/Team GB or what ever they want to call themselves do what they have done in the past and pick the paddlers that they want to work with. Of course it does help if you have a BCU community coach working for your club as well!
The cost of competing is high enough so why add unnecessary cost on to paddlers and create a false division (Div1) with paddlers either going out and winning every race and preventing any others of winning and gaining promotion or finish in the top 3, 5 times win promotion and then wait for the end of the year promotion without paddling again and then paddle the following year in the new div, this would not be good for LTPD either in fact it would be worse than them getting promoted!
What is the Canoe Slalom Committees motto “Putting Paddlers First and Valuing Volunteers” lets remember that when it comes to the vote.
Cheers
Graeme
I can see where Andy is coming from and it works fine should you want to be in/on the GB squad, but most people paddle for the enjoyment and the prize is winning and working up the divisions, the aim maybe to get into Prem at the end of the day.
So let the World Class/Team GB or what ever they want to call themselves do what they have done in the past and pick the paddlers that they want to work with. Of course it does help if you have a BCU community coach working for your club as well!
The cost of competing is high enough so why add unnecessary cost on to paddlers and create a false division (Div1) with paddlers either going out and winning every race and preventing any others of winning and gaining promotion or finish in the top 3, 5 times win promotion and then wait for the end of the year promotion without paddling again and then paddle the following year in the new div, this would not be good for LTPD either in fact it would be worse than them getting promoted!
What is the Canoe Slalom Committees motto “Putting Paddlers First and Valuing Volunteers” lets remember that when it comes to the vote.
Cheers
Graeme
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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Non paddler
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:13 pm
- Location: Salisbury
As always this topic provides good fun debate, this year is no exception and my random thoughts are below for what they are worth.
I take Harvey’s point that there are people with a lot of experience and knowledge at the top end of the sport in terms of coaching and planning talent development who are passionate about this and there must be a good reason why. But they are not many of them who use this forum (the only one the slalom community has) to argue the case. As a result, I think many of us, maybe unfairly, are suspicious of the motive of the proposal.
What Harvey appears to suggest is that Prem must be only for very elite paddlers and to achieve this we must make it more difficult to get into Prem, the corollary of this argument is that a smaller number of paddlers get promoted over a year. So the suspicion arises that the proposal is not really about limiting promotions to the end of the year but limiting promotions full stop. Limiting numbers promoted to maintain the standards of Prem may well be a valid argument, but it should not be disguised as something different.
The proposal last year was to leave promotions 100% in the discretion of the committee. The proposal this year is a bit confusing in this regard. In Andy’s argument for the proposal he was suggesting a target of 4500 for certain end of season promotion, however the proposal now states a target of 4750, the same as for in season promotion. This high target is likely to result in either those promoted reducing their Div 1 racing after promotion (for expense or lack of competitive target reasons) or the number achieving that target is very small (as the same small group take all the podium positions during the season). The former must be bad prep for Prem, and the later, very small numbers make the target, goes back to promotion by discretion and the possibility of reducing the number of promotions.
I really oppose a system whereby promotion criteria after a full years racing (and expense!) is unknown, I do not think there is any other sport that operates like this and it inherently seems to me at odds with what competitive sport is about, you should know what you have to do to win the prize you are aiming for.
If we really do want to move to an end of season promotion why not have a clearly defined fixed number promoted and demoted, say 6. Also make the number of counting races more, say 7 or 8 to maintain interest longer. This would be clearer.
I appreciate the argument that in season promotion can distort the value of points in Prem, but this is very minor, is the same for everyone and I do not believe materially changes relative rankings. More convincing is the argument that winning Div 1 in its own right does not have the attraction or kudos of previous years, but this will take a few years to re-establish, even if it does, can we afford to wait? Overall no compelling case has been made to change the current in season promotions system. I know it sometimes can be a refuge of those without vision, but in this case if it is not broken then don’t fix it seems to fit the bill.
I take Harvey’s point that there are people with a lot of experience and knowledge at the top end of the sport in terms of coaching and planning talent development who are passionate about this and there must be a good reason why. But they are not many of them who use this forum (the only one the slalom community has) to argue the case. As a result, I think many of us, maybe unfairly, are suspicious of the motive of the proposal.
What Harvey appears to suggest is that Prem must be only for very elite paddlers and to achieve this we must make it more difficult to get into Prem, the corollary of this argument is that a smaller number of paddlers get promoted over a year. So the suspicion arises that the proposal is not really about limiting promotions to the end of the year but limiting promotions full stop. Limiting numbers promoted to maintain the standards of Prem may well be a valid argument, but it should not be disguised as something different.
The proposal last year was to leave promotions 100% in the discretion of the committee. The proposal this year is a bit confusing in this regard. In Andy’s argument for the proposal he was suggesting a target of 4500 for certain end of season promotion, however the proposal now states a target of 4750, the same as for in season promotion. This high target is likely to result in either those promoted reducing their Div 1 racing after promotion (for expense or lack of competitive target reasons) or the number achieving that target is very small (as the same small group take all the podium positions during the season). The former must be bad prep for Prem, and the later, very small numbers make the target, goes back to promotion by discretion and the possibility of reducing the number of promotions.
I really oppose a system whereby promotion criteria after a full years racing (and expense!) is unknown, I do not think there is any other sport that operates like this and it inherently seems to me at odds with what competitive sport is about, you should know what you have to do to win the prize you are aiming for.
If we really do want to move to an end of season promotion why not have a clearly defined fixed number promoted and demoted, say 6. Also make the number of counting races more, say 7 or 8 to maintain interest longer. This would be clearer.
I appreciate the argument that in season promotion can distort the value of points in Prem, but this is very minor, is the same for everyone and I do not believe materially changes relative rankings. More convincing is the argument that winning Div 1 in its own right does not have the attraction or kudos of previous years, but this will take a few years to re-establish, even if it does, can we afford to wait? Overall no compelling case has been made to change the current in season promotions system. I know it sometimes can be a refuge of those without vision, but in this case if it is not broken then don’t fix it seems to fit the bill.
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GlennRoberts
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: Manchester
I do not know the real motives for this proposal, as in my opinion the arguments for that Andy Maddocks has provided are weak. I do not believe they are grounded on concepts to help paddler development and motivation. I would like to hear the real arguments, and judge those on their merits.
One thing I like about this sport today is that every committed paddler has their moment at the top of their division until they get to the final tier. I believe the pressure to win a race is important to paddler development, as is the motivational boost that a good race position provides.
Even without this proposal those currently at the top of K1M Div 1 already have a motivational crisis caused by the large number of PREM demotions. Of course it is essential that Div 1 paddlers can beat the majority of those demoted before gaining promotion, but we know that each year some people are demoted due to personal circumstances rather than ability level. It is very unlikely that developing paddlers will beat the likes of Anton Lippek, and nor should it be expected. The current rules adequately cater for this kind of anomaly, and also the lack of all year round availability due to exams.
If this proposal is passed, how am I to motivate my son, who was high placed in Div 1, to train hard all winter knowing he is very unlikely to get an opportunity for a top position all season?
Please vote this proposal down - it is bad for Div 1 paddler motivation.
One thing I like about this sport today is that every committed paddler has their moment at the top of their division until they get to the final tier. I believe the pressure to win a race is important to paddler development, as is the motivational boost that a good race position provides.
Even without this proposal those currently at the top of K1M Div 1 already have a motivational crisis caused by the large number of PREM demotions. Of course it is essential that Div 1 paddlers can beat the majority of those demoted before gaining promotion, but we know that each year some people are demoted due to personal circumstances rather than ability level. It is very unlikely that developing paddlers will beat the likes of Anton Lippek, and nor should it be expected. The current rules adequately cater for this kind of anomaly, and also the lack of all year round availability due to exams.
If this proposal is passed, how am I to motivate my son, who was high placed in Div 1, to train hard all winter knowing he is very unlikely to get an opportunity for a top position all season?
Please vote this proposal down - it is bad for Div 1 paddler motivation.
I have to say that I totally disagree with Harvey's statement that the object of a sport is to produce Elite performers. This is the sort of elitist claptrap that puts many off getting involved in competitive sport. The object of all sports should be to get the widest participation possible and for people to enjoy their participation. Anything else, such as gongs at Olympics, is welcome, but incidental.
For what it's worth from a lowly div 2 paddler, the system seems to work well as it currently stands, as evidenced by the fact that very few in-season promotees to Prem are languishing at the bottom of the rankings in their new division.
I also agree with Dave B re most paddlers down to div 2 being able to handle 'big water' uk courses - I've paddled much harder in my plastic over the years, so don't kid yourself that Tully, HPP, Tryweryn etc. are 'big water'
James H
For what it's worth from a lowly div 2 paddler, the system seems to work well as it currently stands, as evidenced by the fact that very few in-season promotees to Prem are languishing at the bottom of the rankings in their new division.
I also agree with Dave B re most paddlers down to div 2 being able to handle 'big water' uk courses - I've paddled much harder in my plastic over the years, so don't kid yourself that Tully, HPP, Tryweryn etc. are 'big water'
James H
Indeed a good debate by all....
I believe the inference was not that the OBJECT of the sport was to produce Elite paddlers, but that the sport LOOKS to produce ELITE paddlers. This is very different! And incidently recognised further;
{I'm afraid like it or not there are those in this SPORT for ENJOYMENT and those for PERFORMANCE, neither division is Exclusive, but PREMIER is about those paddlers at the pinacle of the sport, and hence it IS/SHOULD BE...HARD TO GET INTO}
This statement says it should be HARD for EVERYONE. It is only a negative mind set that makes this less motivational? (Positive mindset suggests.... 'That means i'll be better when i get promoted...
Big Smile..... That means its 'worth' even more to me!'....) :rock:
I won't even get into the lame pun about coaches; but i will say, i am both a Volunteer in the sport, supporter/Helper at International Events, Judge, Organiser of Races - both in Slalom and WWR, a Coach, an International Paddler, a National Paddler, and a Paddler who has been in PREM/DIV1 both sides of the Promotional System Changes in 2001, oh and the Coach Co-ordinator for my Club, (which does happen to be quite good, and hence have individual paddlers i am responsible for, that this Promotional Change would directly effect); so does this mean im now allowed to vote?
In referral to Non-Paddlers comments, i completely agree with him, it does seem somewhat strange to have a random points based system (arbitary number that means promotion) but as I interpreted it, that was merely a suggestion/guideline that the promotions committee could use, they always managed to make fairly sensible decisions in the past on these situations.
However, i think Non-paddler does raise an interesting point when he argues the point, of what is this change is intended to do. But I don't think it is disguised as anything, i think you have hit the nail on the head, that is the POINT of what we are trying to do, we are trying to IMPROVE the standards of BOTH Premier and Division1.
Over the last three years the Slalom committee has published target figures to reduce the number of paddlers in the all Divisions, this is to try to IMPROVE the paddlers in the Divisions, and re-establish a Pyramid structure to the entire system. However, though this is effective, there is a limit to how small this division size can be, as the financial viability of a PREM race is called into question with many less than the current size reductions this year. Hence if we want to find a method to IMPROVE the STANDARDS we must look to make the entry level higher, if in the very first season of a Promotional system change, this means LESS people get promoted, then LESS people get promoted!!! It will however, quickly even itself out again. The paddlers will then be in Division 1 longer, they will have progressed further in that time. They will be better paddlers, and hence able to get promoted at this new higher level, on a following occasion.
Playing Devils Advocate (if i have not been already), to make the most motivation for those paddling in Division 1 this year, we simply make a new rule; "Doing 1 race in Division 1 in 2010, is enough to get you promoted to PREM." - we will have a lot of very HAPPY PADDLERS, whooop, but they have not improved, nor have they had to try hard, nor train hard, nor experience hard competition. But every one is Happy and its a cheap season (only got pay for one race). Win, win for everyone, surely?!
Though this is the extreme, it is what happens if standards are based on the ability of those around you, and not on an independent factor! You effectively make Division 1 worthless, and do the people currently in Division 1 a dis-service.
Its also important to note, the vastly conflicting arguements people put forward against changing the system. i.e. If you are racing for enjoyment, you are racing because you ENJOY your sport! Hence, if DIVISION 1, is on ALL the same water, and there are more opportunities to RACE, then there are more times to ENJOY yourself. Oh and you get a practice, so get more river time, to ENJOY the paddling with which you entered the SPORT to do.
This directly conflicts with those who argue don't change it, it COSTS to much, as i'm afraid, if you want to improve there is no QUICK ROUTE, you need to do MORE races. THE MORE YOU DO, THE BETTER YOU GET. IF you must do a 100 competitive races to be a GOOD racer, then doing 17 races in one year in DIV1, and only 9 races in PREM (with no practice - less water time = slower improvement) means it takes you twice as many years to get to 100 races. You still have to do them all, and with prices going up, it ACTUALLY COSTS you more. Unfortunately, our sport IS expensive, it IS going to cost you money to go and RACE, Train, or even just keep you kit up to the standard required to use it.
In relation to the observation of STANDARDS of the in SEASON PREMOTED Paddlers, if you average their point scores for the number of races:
69 = 375
70 = (ex Prem paddler) = 683
71 = 156
72 = 174
73 = 222.5
74 = 179
75 = Did not race
76 = 288
77 = 93
The Highest Premier Paddler who WILL get demoted this year (if the Numbers are stuck to) had an average of 349 points. Hence.... of those DIV1 in season Premotees that paddled only 2 of them achieved results worthy of staying up in the PREMIER DIVISION, and the rest are at best only equal in ability to those going down.
This just seems very strange to me.... I would of thought we should have the best paddlers in the top division, when the other paddlers (for Enjoyment or Performance) are good enough, let them race - send them flocking, but currently these numbers don't appear to paint a good picture for those going down, or those going up.
Who's to say it is or isn't broken... simply is there a better DIV 1/PREM PROMOTIONAL SYSTEM, that is the QUESTION.... the answer could be simply .... NO..... but what if its not?
I believe the inference was not that the OBJECT of the sport was to produce Elite paddlers, but that the sport LOOKS to produce ELITE paddlers. This is very different! And incidently recognised further;
{I'm afraid like it or not there are those in this SPORT for ENJOYMENT and those for PERFORMANCE, neither division is Exclusive, but PREMIER is about those paddlers at the pinacle of the sport, and hence it IS/SHOULD BE...HARD TO GET INTO}
This statement says it should be HARD for EVERYONE. It is only a negative mind set that makes this less motivational? (Positive mindset suggests.... 'That means i'll be better when i get promoted...
Big Smile..... That means its 'worth' even more to me!'....) :rock: I won't even get into the lame pun about coaches; but i will say, i am both a Volunteer in the sport, supporter/Helper at International Events, Judge, Organiser of Races - both in Slalom and WWR, a Coach, an International Paddler, a National Paddler, and a Paddler who has been in PREM/DIV1 both sides of the Promotional System Changes in 2001, oh and the Coach Co-ordinator for my Club, (which does happen to be quite good, and hence have individual paddlers i am responsible for, that this Promotional Change would directly effect); so does this mean im now allowed to vote?
In referral to Non-Paddlers comments, i completely agree with him, it does seem somewhat strange to have a random points based system (arbitary number that means promotion) but as I interpreted it, that was merely a suggestion/guideline that the promotions committee could use, they always managed to make fairly sensible decisions in the past on these situations.
However, i think Non-paddler does raise an interesting point when he argues the point, of what is this change is intended to do. But I don't think it is disguised as anything, i think you have hit the nail on the head, that is the POINT of what we are trying to do, we are trying to IMPROVE the standards of BOTH Premier and Division1.
Over the last three years the Slalom committee has published target figures to reduce the number of paddlers in the all Divisions, this is to try to IMPROVE the paddlers in the Divisions, and re-establish a Pyramid structure to the entire system. However, though this is effective, there is a limit to how small this division size can be, as the financial viability of a PREM race is called into question with many less than the current size reductions this year. Hence if we want to find a method to IMPROVE the STANDARDS we must look to make the entry level higher, if in the very first season of a Promotional system change, this means LESS people get promoted, then LESS people get promoted!!! It will however, quickly even itself out again. The paddlers will then be in Division 1 longer, they will have progressed further in that time. They will be better paddlers, and hence able to get promoted at this new higher level, on a following occasion.
Playing Devils Advocate (if i have not been already), to make the most motivation for those paddling in Division 1 this year, we simply make a new rule; "Doing 1 race in Division 1 in 2010, is enough to get you promoted to PREM." - we will have a lot of very HAPPY PADDLERS, whooop, but they have not improved, nor have they had to try hard, nor train hard, nor experience hard competition. But every one is Happy and its a cheap season (only got pay for one race). Win, win for everyone, surely?!
Though this is the extreme, it is what happens if standards are based on the ability of those around you, and not on an independent factor! You effectively make Division 1 worthless, and do the people currently in Division 1 a dis-service.
Its also important to note, the vastly conflicting arguements people put forward against changing the system. i.e. If you are racing for enjoyment, you are racing because you ENJOY your sport! Hence, if DIVISION 1, is on ALL the same water, and there are more opportunities to RACE, then there are more times to ENJOY yourself. Oh and you get a practice, so get more river time, to ENJOY the paddling with which you entered the SPORT to do.
This directly conflicts with those who argue don't change it, it COSTS to much, as i'm afraid, if you want to improve there is no QUICK ROUTE, you need to do MORE races. THE MORE YOU DO, THE BETTER YOU GET. IF you must do a 100 competitive races to be a GOOD racer, then doing 17 races in one year in DIV1, and only 9 races in PREM (with no practice - less water time = slower improvement) means it takes you twice as many years to get to 100 races. You still have to do them all, and with prices going up, it ACTUALLY COSTS you more. Unfortunately, our sport IS expensive, it IS going to cost you money to go and RACE, Train, or even just keep you kit up to the standard required to use it.
In relation to the observation of STANDARDS of the in SEASON PREMOTED Paddlers, if you average their point scores for the number of races:
69 = 375
70 = (ex Prem paddler) = 683
71 = 156
72 = 174
73 = 222.5
74 = 179
75 = Did not race
76 = 288
77 = 93
The Highest Premier Paddler who WILL get demoted this year (if the Numbers are stuck to) had an average of 349 points. Hence.... of those DIV1 in season Premotees that paddled only 2 of them achieved results worthy of staying up in the PREMIER DIVISION, and the rest are at best only equal in ability to those going down.
This just seems very strange to me.... I would of thought we should have the best paddlers in the top division, when the other paddlers (for Enjoyment or Performance) are good enough, let them race - send them flocking, but currently these numbers don't appear to paint a good picture for those going down, or those going up.
Who's to say it is or isn't broken... simply is there a better DIV 1/PREM PROMOTIONAL SYSTEM, that is the QUESTION.... the answer could be simply .... NO..... but what if its not?
A thought to add. Back when premier and division one ran on the same course on the same day, All div ones could compare performance with the best as could selectors. A good race winning div one might have to wait until the end of the season to get into premier but knew how they well they were doing and the prems in the bottom half could see the standard that was chasing them. No surprises come March and the first event for anyone. The exceptional div ones won races but cared more about how their time stood up to the premier results. Without this a young paddler can spend an important season guessing how they will stand up to premier when they could be finding out. A year is a long time for a U16. I have been impressed by the in season promotion since returning to the sport and believe that unless we return to a single premier/div one format it should stand.
Don't know enough to judge on in-season vs. year end promotions, but..... there is an issue related to in-season promotion that does need discussion. Around half the Prem paddlers that get demoted at season end then claim most of the podium places in the first half of their next (D1) season and bounce back up. No problem with that. But the next season when they are back up to Prem they get s/s protection. That can have the effect of forcing down good Prem paddlers who are demonstrably better than the bounceback brigade and didn't get demoted in the first place.
How about saying that s/s protection is only granted to a paddler when he FIRST goes up to a division. The bounceback brigade who are worth their salt get back up in the first half of the season anyway, they must just prove their worth over the second half. They've had one shot of s/s protection while they were up-and-coming, that's it. This principle could apply across all divisions.
How about saying that s/s protection is only granted to a paddler when he FIRST goes up to a division. The bounceback brigade who are worth their salt get back up in the first half of the season anyway, they must just prove their worth over the second half. They've had one shot of s/s protection while they were up-and-coming, that's it. This principle could apply across all divisions.