Llandysul Div1/2 - Thankyou
I totally agree it was a good event, it always is, the problem I have is with the lap of the Gods water level. This I know is completely out of the hands of the organisers but having spoken to several people of the same opinion, can we really run a decent Div 1 on water at the level it was?
To err is human, if you really want to screw up, use a computer!!
Water levels on natural courses are always unpredictable well ahead of an event. However, as this is part and parcel of canoeing, surely we should embrace the variability! The implication of this comment is that we should limit div 1s to water where the level is more or less fixed week in and week out. Is this what we want?
If this became a criterion, how many other sites would be dropped from the div 1 calendar?
Paddlers with easy access to HPP already have a huge advantage. If such restrictions were imposed, inevitably this advantage would increase - is this desirable?
If this became a criterion, how many other sites would be dropped from the div 1 calendar?
Paddlers with easy access to HPP already have a huge advantage. If such restrictions were imposed, inevitably this advantage would increase - is this desirable?
I understand your comments Ray, but I am sorry the water conditions at the weekend were hardly any more than a flat water slog.
Okay for new paddlers to Div 1 (yesterday some Div 1's where struggling at that level, an old arguement!) but for the top of the division hardly testing.
Okay for new paddlers to Div 1 (yesterday some Div 1's where struggling at that level, an old arguement!) but for the top of the division hardly testing.
To err is human, if you really want to screw up, use a computer!!
Completely disagree with the comments about water level.
A good paddler can compete on any water. I don't think that there have been any exceptional results due to the conditions. The best paddlers won and the people expected to be at the top were and the people you'd expect to be at the bottom were too. If you're not quick enough on the flat it's unlikely that you'll be quick enough on the big stuff either. Llandysul, like washburn, is a race where you need to be fitr to do well regardless of water levels! The course was challenging, the winners kept their boats running through the staggers and were quick in and out of the breakouts.
I thought it was an excellent event and the course was good, using the water they had. I don't think that canoe slalom should be limited to artificial courses, nor should races be cancelled due to the water level for any reason other than safety.
Nicky
A good paddler can compete on any water. I don't think that there have been any exceptional results due to the conditions. The best paddlers won and the people expected to be at the top were and the people you'd expect to be at the bottom were too. If you're not quick enough on the flat it's unlikely that you'll be quick enough on the big stuff either. Llandysul, like washburn, is a race where you need to be fitr to do well regardless of water levels! The course was challenging, the winners kept their boats running through the staggers and were quick in and out of the breakouts.
I thought it was an excellent event and the course was good, using the water they had. I don't think that canoe slalom should be limited to artificial courses, nor should races be cancelled due to the water level for any reason other than safety.
Nicky
One of the exciting things about llandysul is you don't know what to expect. The water level can change a lot even between runs. Also, this was a div1/2 not a prem/1 event so there has to be a chance for div2 paddlers (like myself) to make the gates. I found the last div1/2 I paddled on the chipper section of the Tryweryn easier technically. If you didn't find it a challenge perhaps you didn't push yourself hard enough, or try tight enough lines.
ps. if that's Nicky C above, you're a great coach. I learnt loads just watching you coach a group on Saturday evening, without which I'd probably have stuffed up the last gate.
ps. if that's Nicky C above, you're a great coach. I learnt loads just watching you coach a group on Saturday evening, without which I'd probably have stuffed up the last gate.
It will be interesting to see how those who mainly got their promotion points to Prem at lower water courses such as the top of the Washburn (not the course in Sep, the drop & lower section was challenging), Tully and Llandysul do when they paddle only bigger water courses in Prem.
I have to agree with Kev's comments.
Maybe there is a case for div 1/2 events not being mixed on the same day so the course can be set appropriately challenging?? Slalom is not flat water racing, there should be technical & white water skill to get to Prem.
If it was an appropriately set div one course why had so many paddlers got clean runs Sunday? Also many of the div 1 men times were slit second apart - at one point six men all had 126 point something on Sunday.
PS this is not as go at the organisers, if all events were so well run it would be great - well done!!!
I have to agree with Kev's comments.
Maybe there is a case for div 1/2 events not being mixed on the same day so the course can be set appropriately challenging?? Slalom is not flat water racing, there should be technical & white water skill to get to Prem.
If it was an appropriately set div one course why had so many paddlers got clean runs Sunday? Also many of the div 1 men times were slit second apart - at one point six men all had 126 point something on Sunday.
PS this is not as go at the organisers, if all events were so well run it would be great - well done!!!
It wasn't that close!
Sam Ahmed won by a mile on Saturday and would have done the same on sunday had he not necked one gate too many!
You will get paddlers that close when you have so many people racing. Have you ever looked at the results from a prem race? This is more pronounced in div 1 as it's best run that counts so if you blow out you get a second chance...
The course at Llandysul was perfect for a div1/2. The courses were challenging for the fastest, with only a few paddlers on saturday managing gates 9 and 17 forwards (clean), whilst the div 2s and slower paddlers had the option of a spin or even a peel out. It also taught some paddlers what a difference a penalty could make to your result which can't be a bad thing! With so many places lost for a touch or two, maybe that was the reason for so many clean runs on Sunday? Were people a little cautious after Saturday?
I think that running mixed division events is also good in that it gives the least experienced a chance to race on a proper course (if they want to, nobody forces you to go!) and if people say that a particular race was "too flat", no one gets promoted from one race anyway!
As I said before, the course was good enough for div 1, it gave options. With so many youngsters being near the top, it can't have been purely about brute strength...
Anyway, end of rant!
Thanks Katonas, glad I could help and thanks for another good race Gareth, see you next year!
Nicky
Sam Ahmed won by a mile on Saturday and would have done the same on sunday had he not necked one gate too many!
You will get paddlers that close when you have so many people racing. Have you ever looked at the results from a prem race? This is more pronounced in div 1 as it's best run that counts so if you blow out you get a second chance...
The course at Llandysul was perfect for a div1/2. The courses were challenging for the fastest, with only a few paddlers on saturday managing gates 9 and 17 forwards (clean), whilst the div 2s and slower paddlers had the option of a spin or even a peel out. It also taught some paddlers what a difference a penalty could make to your result which can't be a bad thing! With so many places lost for a touch or two, maybe that was the reason for so many clean runs on Sunday? Were people a little cautious after Saturday?
I think that running mixed division events is also good in that it gives the least experienced a chance to race on a proper course (if they want to, nobody forces you to go!) and if people say that a particular race was "too flat", no one gets promoted from one race anyway!
As I said before, the course was good enough for div 1, it gave options. With so many youngsters being near the top, it can't have been purely about brute strength...
Anyway, end of rant!
Thanks Katonas, glad I could help and thanks for another good race Gareth, see you next year!
Nicky
Well said Nicky
You can't guarantee anything in our sport, even events at HPP or the Tryweryn get cancelled because of water levels. As Nicky says, the same guys, more or less, end up at the top. Contrast this thread with the one about the Rugby HPP event being too hard - again, it was the usual suspects at in the top positions.
See y'all at Teeside.
You can't guarantee anything in our sport, even events at HPP or the Tryweryn get cancelled because of water levels. As Nicky says, the same guys, more or less, end up at the top. Contrast this thread with the one about the Rugby HPP event being too hard - again, it was the usual suspects at in the top positions.
See y'all at Teeside.
I think Rugby was challenging as Div 1 should be.
I think when the results are published it isn't all the usual suspects. Plus Llandysul often gets the paddlers going who won't tackle the large water. There is a difference in the start list from Rugby showing those who are willing to paddle the two completely different courses.
The key point for the weekend was the number of clean runs, especially Sunday, surely showing a far too easy course.
I think when the results are published it isn't all the usual suspects. Plus Llandysul often gets the paddlers going who won't tackle the large water. There is a difference in the start list from Rugby showing those who are willing to paddle the two completely different courses.
The key point for the weekend was the number of clean runs, especially Sunday, surely showing a far too easy course.
I think that running mixed division events is also good in that it gives the least experienced a chance to race on a proper course
Yes Nicky you are quite right mixed division races are a good thing, it was a good turn out at the weekend with Div 2 paddlers and I'm am sure most coped well, however compare that with the Rugby event for the Div 2, I had 80+ Div 1 judges and off the top of my head about 40 Div 2 paddlers across all catagories.
This is the problem they are quite prepared to race easy courses but are obviously nervous about getting on to HPP, we should be encouraging these guys on to the harder water, and lets face it unless you are very unlucky all that a swim at HPP will cause it to get wet. Also Nicky you compared Llandysul to the Washburn, I'm sorry but the Washburn is much more technical, its narrow, fast, trees in the water, some fairly tricky stoppers and it can only be described as a canal on steroids.
Chauffer is right, slalom is a white water sport especially for the higher divisions, now if Llandysul had of been up like it can be it would have been a completely different race, and I would bet money the results for Mens and Ladies would have been different again. The Point I raised initially was can we put on a challenging Div 1 on water at the level it was, and I think not!
This is in no way a moan at the organisers, they as always put on a superb weekend.
Yes Nicky you are quite right mixed division races are a good thing, it was a good turn out at the weekend with Div 2 paddlers and I'm am sure most coped well, however compare that with the Rugby event for the Div 2, I had 80+ Div 1 judges and off the top of my head about 40 Div 2 paddlers across all catagories.
This is the problem they are quite prepared to race easy courses but are obviously nervous about getting on to HPP, we should be encouraging these guys on to the harder water, and lets face it unless you are very unlucky all that a swim at HPP will cause it to get wet. Also Nicky you compared Llandysul to the Washburn, I'm sorry but the Washburn is much more technical, its narrow, fast, trees in the water, some fairly tricky stoppers and it can only be described as a canal on steroids.
Chauffer is right, slalom is a white water sport especially for the higher divisions, now if Llandysul had of been up like it can be it would have been a completely different race, and I would bet money the results for Mens and Ladies would have been different again. The Point I raised initially was can we put on a challenging Div 1 on water at the level it was, and I think not!
This is in no way a moan at the organisers, they as always put on a superb weekend.
To err is human, if you really want to screw up, use a computer!!
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Phil Stevo
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:14 pm
First of all thanks to Gareth and all for another great weekend -it is always worth the trek. Only spoilt by Mr Grumpy wanting to go fishing in the middle of the slalom.
I guess we all would have liked some more water in but I'm with Nicky that you have to paddle to the conditions. It is the variables in our sport that make it so great.
On Kev's point of it not being a challenging course, it's the first time in a long while I've seen paddlers throwing up at the finish due to effort (unless they were just baiting the river for Mr Grumpy).
Racing on a low dropping river means you really have bust a gut to get a faster second run.
Given the conditions I thought Saturdays course was excellent with two sections where choices had to be made with the hardest move right at the end. Sunday's was maybe a little too 'standard' but then it's about trying to shave the 10ths of the course.
I think we have the mix of Prem/Div1s, Div1s and Div1/Div2s just about right at the moment. Pay your money - take your choice.
I guess we all would have liked some more water in but I'm with Nicky that you have to paddle to the conditions. It is the variables in our sport that make it so great.
On Kev's point of it not being a challenging course, it's the first time in a long while I've seen paddlers throwing up at the finish due to effort (unless they were just baiting the river for Mr Grumpy).
Racing on a low dropping river means you really have bust a gut to get a faster second run.
Given the conditions I thought Saturdays course was excellent with two sections where choices had to be made with the hardest move right at the end. Sunday's was maybe a little too 'standard' but then it's about trying to shave the 10ths of the course.
I think we have the mix of Prem/Div1s, Div1s and Div1/Div2s just about right at the moment. Pay your money - take your choice.
I think an interesting point raised by Nicky in his first post was that the top finishers were the same ones that have been getting good results at previous races; this was also the case at the Rugby HPP race despite a lot of people saying it was too hard. I'm glad that there is room for races at both ends of the spectrum.
I think that it was actually more of a disappointment for the div 2 paddlers; Llandysul is usually a nice step up from the general run of div 2 and div 3 courses.
I think that it was actually more of a disappointment for the div 2 paddlers; Llandysul is usually a nice step up from the general run of div 2 and div 3 courses.
I think most of the the Div 1's would've rather have had higher water, as we know Llandysul is capable of, but this is part of the sport and always will be unless we stop having natural river courses - something I wouldn't like to see, particuarly beneath Prem. I think the courses, particularly Saturday, made the most of the river. Yes they will be probably the easiest 2 courses of the year in Div 1, but probably not by a big margin.
This is all a bit of deja vu from last year. People talking about "easy" promotions. Look at the top end and the same people who win at HPP etc are winning here, same as last year. The difference will be that the midfield is tightly packed with (as mentioned) people who perhaps don't like, or are not very good at the big water. This isn't the fault of the organisers!
I think Nicky's comparison against Washburn was referring to the length of the course - he's absolutely right. I was absolutely finished at the end of all runs - a true indication of my lack of fitness!
Thanks to all at Llandysul for an enjoyable weekend. May you be blessed with more autumn rain in future.
This is all a bit of deja vu from last year. People talking about "easy" promotions. Look at the top end and the same people who win at HPP etc are winning here, same as last year. The difference will be that the midfield is tightly packed with (as mentioned) people who perhaps don't like, or are not very good at the big water. This isn't the fault of the organisers!
I think Nicky's comparison against Washburn was referring to the length of the course - he's absolutely right. I was absolutely finished at the end of all runs - a true indication of my lack of fitness!
Thanks to all at Llandysul for an enjoyable weekend. May you be blessed with more autumn rain in future.
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Non paddler
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:13 pm
- Location: Salisbury
This is a good discussion!
My belief is that a lot of the Div 1s got a lot out of the event, a few challenging moves, racing with extra premium on being clean and a really good competitive race.
I am unclear what Kev S wants to happen. Do we take Llandysul off the Div 1 calendar because sometimes the water is a bit lower than div 1 "standard"? Do we cancel the Div 1 at short notice when the water looks as though it is going to be low? One thing we should not do is devalue the achievements of those that did well at this race.
From my perspective Llandysul works really well as part of Div 1 calendar as it is, but I do hope it is better water next year!
My belief is that a lot of the Div 1s got a lot out of the event, a few challenging moves, racing with extra premium on being clean and a really good competitive race.
I am unclear what Kev S wants to happen. Do we take Llandysul off the Div 1 calendar because sometimes the water is a bit lower than div 1 "standard"? Do we cancel the Div 1 at short notice when the water looks as though it is going to be low? One thing we should not do is devalue the achievements of those that did well at this race.
From my perspective Llandysul works really well as part of Div 1 calendar as it is, but I do hope it is better water next year!