Single or Double events please vote - Your choice

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:20 pm

OK KISS vote single or double event.

This basically applies to Prem/Div 1 and Div1/2 events only at the moment as most Div 2/3 or 3/4's are run as doubles

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:32 am

Does a Prem on Sat, and Div1 on Sun count as a single event ?

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:34 am

Perhaps separate polls for div1 and Prem would be helpful, and allow choices that don't represent extremes
eg. What proportion of div1 events would you like to see occurring on both weekend days ; 0, 20, 40, 60, 80 , or 100 %
With a reminder that total number of weekends would fall as the proportion increases.

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:26 pm

Geebs wrote:OK KISS vote single or double event.

This basically applies to Prem/Div 1 and Div1/2 events only at the moment as most Div 2/3 or 3/4's are run as doubles

katonas
Does a Prem on Sat, and Div1 on Sun count as a single event ?

Yes that is a single event

Kayakin Rosie! · Post by **Kayakin Rosie!** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:03 pm

Double days get the most out of the weekend. You get more water time and more experiance on that river.

Also clubs get more competitors from far away clubs on double days because there is no point in traveling 2hrs there and back etc, just for a single day. If it is a double then people have a reason to travel because they can stay overnight.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:14 am

As a new div1 paddler who will struggle to stay in div1, I should be in favour of doubles because I can only paddle a limited number of weekends. But I'm looking forward to single div1 races where I can do some prem judges runs the day before. Learning from the best paddlers in the country/paddling a prem course should improve my paddling more than a double div1. I can take a few extra risks/try some harder moves, and its cheaper.

More doubles = less total weekends of races = less variety of courses = greater impact (particularly gaps between races) when I can't make an event (which is often), or it gets cancelled. The worst consequence of doubles would be the inevitably large 'dead zones' in the calender when no events are occurring.

Mixed division weekends (2 singles) also allow you to catch up with friends in different divisions. Such weekends lead to more available judges for organisers, and those that do judge aren't kept on the bank all day.

I guess it depends if your priority is points, or improving your paddling.

ps. I still think Grandtully /Llandysul should be doubles as they represent travelling extremes for most people.

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:11 pm

Could we keep the discussion to the original thread please Race Calendar 2008

Thank you

Graeme

John · Post by **John** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:06 pm

I don't think people want double events (2 races), but they want weekend events.
Is it not possible to have single events on Sunday's, but have water time available on Saturday's? The events in Nottingham would be ideal for this, as the course is open anyway and thus would not cost the organisor anything. If say the gates were set at 6pm on Saturday evening, people could have a free practice on Saturday morning/afternoon, then have a normal race on Sunday.

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:32 pm

John,

I can only speak for myself and I desire double events in my own div. However, I fully acknowledge there are a host of "forces" on compiling the calendar and a carefully considered balance is necessary. I judged a Prem event last year and practise was verbotten as everyone was on prem rules. As someone who needs 98 practise runs, doing this event didn't really benefit me.

Paul

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:33 pm

PaulBolton wrote:I judged a Prem event last year and practise was verbotten as everyone was on prem rules. As someone who needs 98 practise runs, doing this event didn't really benefit me.

As a div1 paddler, if I can't practice on a prem course the evening before or early before racing starts, I won't be judging many prem events.

Does anyone know if such practice is universally forbidden ?

ps. I usually need 102 practice runs

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:43 pm

There is nothing in the rules stopping judges practicing on Prem courses, only the prem paddlers can't do it!

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:55 pm

I have judged at many Prem events and have never been told there was no practice allowed (except when competing in Pan-Celtic events run alongside a Prem as they are then run under Prem rules). The snag can arise where the number of non prems is low as I will not get on the water by myself.

I agree with Katonas - judges runs at a higher level helps all round (more judges and practice on harder courses for judges). If the aim is more water time, then surely two single div events are the answer. If the aim is more points per weekend then double events are the answer. Unfortunately, many paddlers do not consider judging and hence do not like single events as they don't get the points or water time. This has a knock on effect on entries and hence financial viability.

However, another alternative is to have what I understand used to be the case - teams on Saturday and individual runs on Sunday. Except in Pan-Celtic races, I have only managed to do one team run - at a div 4 (old div 4) at Langham Farm in my son and I's third ever slalom. I remember it as being enjoyable and challenging (plus my son going straight for gate 14 after gate 12 and getting it!!!), and have always wanted to do more but have had virtully no opportunities. Maybe the answer would be to somehow raise the importance of team races in the UK. As they are, after all, held at world championships and as the skill level involved is higher (as you have additional moving obstacles to negotiate), the currently low respect for them is surprising.

FatBoy · Post by **FatBoy** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:48 am

Speaking personally, it's racing I want, not water time, and judging another's race is good practice and training, but it's not really racing. As I will never compete internationally then team runs are fun but practice for nothing other than interclubs.

One of the benefits of a double race is that it gives me the option to only do one day if it's either local, or local to whatever else I'm doing on the other day, and that day could be the Saturday. The biggest problem with the old team runs only on Saturday is it means the races are always Sunday, and that to get the same amount of practice as anyone else a whole weekend is always taken up for one race.

I'll be honest and say this all comes back to the same argument which is Div 1 is trying to be 2 things at once. Most of the things I want out of slalom were served well in Div 2 in 1995, but unfortunately even after a very poor year I'm still too good for the current Div 2.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:30 pm

Anne wrote:There is nothing in the rules stopping judges practicing on Prem courses, only the prem paddlers can't do it!

Thanks for the reassuring words Anne, and Ray.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:00 pm

FatBoy wrote:judging another's race is good practice and training, but it's not really racing.

How can judging a prem event, practising before the event starts, doing 2 judges runs, and comparing your time to the best in the country, not be racing ?

Perhaps the judges competition should be on canoeslalom.co.uk with points awarded like C1, compared to the winning time, and division.

ps. I've made this poll a little more specific, starting with 'weekend options for div1'.