Race Calendar for 2008
As we have had a lot of single day Div 1 events this year in far away places such as Tully & Shepperton etc, should it be considered more practical from the competitors point of view to make it more economicaly viable to enter events to have double events next year for the Div 1's to make the trip worthwhile? Discuss
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
I can see how this thread is going to go. We're back to the old argument of Div 2 isn't what it used to be, and whether Div 1 should cater for the older not quite so committed racer, or the up and coming Prem wanabees.
Personally, as somebody who definitely falls into the former category, I would very much welcome more Doubles, particularly in the more remote locations (not necessarily "far away" - depends where you live!).
However, there is a will to reduce or at least maintain the number of races so more doubles would then mean actually less weekends racing in total, which I'm not sure is a good thing for the older less committed racer, as we tend to have other commitments.
I think on balance, mostly the calendar this year was a good compromise. The only real exception is the Tully Div 1 at Easter, which mostly was only attended by Prem wanabees and (relative) locals. Could this be made a double alongside the Pan Celtic?
Personally, as somebody who definitely falls into the former category, I would very much welcome more Doubles, particularly in the more remote locations (not necessarily "far away" - depends where you live!).
However, there is a will to reduce or at least maintain the number of races so more doubles would then mean actually less weekends racing in total, which I'm not sure is a good thing for the older less committed racer, as we tend to have other commitments.
I think on balance, mostly the calendar this year was a good compromise. The only real exception is the Tully Div 1 at Easter, which mostly was only attended by Prem wanabees and (relative) locals. Could this be made a double alongside the Pan Celtic?
How about having the slaloms a little bit more evenly spaced throughout the year, instead of blocks of races one weekend after the other. Also why is there also such a large gap in the summer? Some of us have families that do not wish to attend races (or are not interested) which then makes it hard to justify being away weekend after weekend.
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canoecrazy
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Phil Stevo
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Looking at recent race attendance should give a clue to what the paddlers in Div 1 favour when it come to doubles vs singles.
Washburn and Llandysul doubles both had 71 Div 1 K1 men entered with most people having to travel a fair distance to Llandysul.
Single Div 1s at Tees and Llangollen were 41 and 42 entered I think.
If we organise the calander to give the 'customer' more of what they seem to want it should bring in more money for the organising clubs, more to the Slalom Exec and should keep more paddlers in the sport.
As fuel continues to increase in price and people are making more 'green' decisions perhaps we should be having more doubles than singles. Also when paddlers and supporters are staying over it helps the social side of the sport.
When I have a couple of hours I will go through the result sheets of all this years Div 1s to get a more definative view of the trend, including the women and canadians - unless someone else has already monitored this and wishes to share the findings here.
Washburn and Llandysul doubles both had 71 Div 1 K1 men entered with most people having to travel a fair distance to Llandysul.
Single Div 1s at Tees and Llangollen were 41 and 42 entered I think.
If we organise the calander to give the 'customer' more of what they seem to want it should bring in more money for the organising clubs, more to the Slalom Exec and should keep more paddlers in the sport.
As fuel continues to increase in price and people are making more 'green' decisions perhaps we should be having more doubles than singles. Also when paddlers and supporters are staying over it helps the social side of the sport.
When I have a couple of hours I will go through the result sheets of all this years Div 1s to get a more definative view of the trend, including the women and canadians - unless someone else has already monitored this and wishes to share the findings here.
Looking at recent race attendance should give a clue to what the paddlers in Div 1 favour when it come to doubles vs singles.
Unfortunately it isn't as simple with the girls. Only 7 paddlers were on the original start list for Town Falls amazingly when the location changed it increased to 18. Yet the div 1/2 at Chapel Falls (which was also a single nearby) had 34 entrants.
It would have been nice to not have such a long break in the summer but that's what it will always be unless we have more races on artifical courses. Maybe we should just move the div 1 prem season to the winter when there's more water but then again that would clash with the main boating season.
Ali
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djberriman
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For me doubles make more sense whenever possible, the cost of competing is basically halved. I certainly would not want to see any less doubles. Apart from the cost it gives us flat water paddlers a chance to get a bit more practice on moving water if we can make a weekend of it. Travelling hundreds of miles for a few minutes on the water is hard to justify in environmental and monetary terms.
Agree with Phil that the figures speak for themselves in Div1 Men. Clearly the doubles are more popular.
I'd also like to see more evenly spaced out events. If that means running the man made/release courses during the summer then lets try and do that where possible and use the natural courses at the start and end of the season when hopefully there is more water.
Running any later into the winter would cause big conflicts with the polo season which many slalom paddlers enjoy.
Also (whilst I am on), with the discussion on 1/Prems being used by Prems to get an advantage in training on the Div 1 day by doing a Judges run why not just run all such events with the higher ranking event first eg. prem/1, 1/2. Not only does this solve any problems with practice and it may encourage more paddlers in the lower division to have a judges run and try the higher ranking course in preparation for their own event which can be no bad thing.
Agree with Phil that the figures speak for themselves in Div1 Men. Clearly the doubles are more popular.
I'd also like to see more evenly spaced out events. If that means running the man made/release courses during the summer then lets try and do that where possible and use the natural courses at the start and end of the season when hopefully there is more water.
Running any later into the winter would cause big conflicts with the polo season which many slalom paddlers enjoy.
Also (whilst I am on), with the discussion on 1/Prems being used by Prems to get an advantage in training on the Div 1 day by doing a Judges run why not just run all such events with the higher ranking event first eg. prem/1, 1/2. Not only does this solve any problems with practice and it may encourage more paddlers in the lower division to have a judges run and try the higher ranking course in preparation for their own event which can be no bad thing.
It would be ideal if we could space races out more evenly however there are many factors as to why races are run when they are.
Firstly most clubs avoid the Summer period because of holidays, both that of club members, enabling them to have enough people to run the event and paddlers, i.e. reducing entry because people are on their hols or away racing abroad.
Secondly, water availablity, natural rivers tend be be lower in Summer and higher later in the year (llandysull & llangollen have got that wrong completely this year!!!). Tryweryn is more likely to cancel a release in the Summer if the water levels are low, as happened this year and some years ago.
Teesside depends on tides and is a commerciall enterprise and rafting is at it's height in the Summer so slaloms there are in the rafting low season.
Thirdly, fishing seasons - we cannot run Llangollen any other time than when we do! It would have been a great site in July this year!
That leave HPP, and the increased costs there is making it more & more difficult for clubs to run a viable race!!!??
As for double events. There are already too many Div 1's. If we went to mainly double events which ones do we sacrifice to keep numbers at least at status quo? Dive 1's used to be always single events with a team race on the Saturday. This has been lost completely by the gradual introduction of doubles.
Remember the more events the more committment for the volunteer timing team and section judges who are already stretched to the limit.
If you have the answer please let the committee know!
Firstly most clubs avoid the Summer period because of holidays, both that of club members, enabling them to have enough people to run the event and paddlers, i.e. reducing entry because people are on their hols or away racing abroad.
Secondly, water availablity, natural rivers tend be be lower in Summer and higher later in the year (llandysull & llangollen have got that wrong completely this year!!!). Tryweryn is more likely to cancel a release in the Summer if the water levels are low, as happened this year and some years ago.
Teesside depends on tides and is a commerciall enterprise and rafting is at it's height in the Summer so slaloms there are in the rafting low season.
Thirdly, fishing seasons - we cannot run Llangollen any other time than when we do! It would have been a great site in July this year!
That leave HPP, and the increased costs there is making it more & more difficult for clubs to run a viable race!!!??
As for double events. There are already too many Div 1's. If we went to mainly double events which ones do we sacrifice to keep numbers at least at status quo? Dive 1's used to be always single events with a team race on the Saturday. This has been lost completely by the gradual introduction of doubles.
Remember the more events the more committment for the volunteer timing team and section judges who are already stretched to the limit.
If you have the answer please let the committee know!
I've got my analyst head on, so don't be offended - it's just me making sure statements are justified or whether they are just conjecture.
Is there a target number? If so how did that number come about? Throwing a few numbers through a spreadsheet (yeah I know I should be working...) I see that only 26% of Div 1 Men (K1) have been to more than 9 races this year (I picked 9 as it's the same number of races as Prem season). Nobody has actually been to all the Div 1's this year in any class. Average attendance is 41% in both Men and Women, and 44% in C1. One could argue if you reduce the number of events, you would increase attendance at an individual event, but this is speculation.
In terms of numbers attending doubles, the figures do seem to back up they are more popular. In K1W the events attracting > 50% were Llandysul both days, Washburn both days and Chapel Falls. In K1M they were just Llandysul and Washburn. In C1 there were many more attracting > 50%, but those attracting > 60% were both days at Washburn and all 3 races at Tully. Numbers of course are low in C1 therefore these figures are easily skewed by an extra boat or two.
edit: I should add these figures are based on the total number competing through the year. Some of those were not in Div 1 at the start of the season, and some weren't in it at the end. Essentially 100% attendance would never be achievable as there were never that number in Div 1 at any single point.
There are only 3 doubles on the calendar, so this statement isn't specifically true. You could argue they have been lost by introduction of a "Double" where one day is a Div 1 and the other either a Prem or a Div 2. I would argue the 2 reasons we now have just single day races and no teams is that a) we can now fit practice and 2 races runs in a day with the numbers involved, and more importantly b) it's what people want. Essentially one weekend is now either 2 races, or a day doing something else, rather than having to commit 2 days to one race. Granted, this is speculation, but look at numbers whenever a team race is put on now - not many. They're a good laugh but I don't think many people would put them high on a list of requirements for a race.
If anybody is interested the figures are in a spreadsheet here.Div 1 stats 2007
There are already too many Div 1's.
Is there a target number? If so how did that number come about? Throwing a few numbers through a spreadsheet (yeah I know I should be working...) I see that only 26% of Div 1 Men (K1) have been to more than 9 races this year (I picked 9 as it's the same number of races as Prem season). Nobody has actually been to all the Div 1's this year in any class. Average attendance is 41% in both Men and Women, and 44% in C1. One could argue if you reduce the number of events, you would increase attendance at an individual event, but this is speculation.
In terms of numbers attending doubles, the figures do seem to back up they are more popular. In K1W the events attracting > 50% were Llandysul both days, Washburn both days and Chapel Falls. In K1M they were just Llandysul and Washburn. In C1 there were many more attracting > 50%, but those attracting > 60% were both days at Washburn and all 3 races at Tully. Numbers of course are low in C1 therefore these figures are easily skewed by an extra boat or two.
edit: I should add these figures are based on the total number competing through the year. Some of those were not in Div 1 at the start of the season, and some weren't in it at the end. Essentially 100% attendance would never be achievable as there were never that number in Div 1 at any single point.
Div 1's used to be always single events with a team race on the Saturday. This has been lost completely by the gradual introduction of doubles.
There are only 3 doubles on the calendar, so this statement isn't specifically true. You could argue they have been lost by introduction of a "Double" where one day is a Div 1 and the other either a Prem or a Div 2. I would argue the 2 reasons we now have just single day races and no teams is that a) we can now fit practice and 2 races runs in a day with the numbers involved, and more importantly b) it's what people want. Essentially one weekend is now either 2 races, or a day doing something else, rather than having to commit 2 days to one race. Granted, this is speculation, but look at numbers whenever a team race is put on now - not many. They're a good laugh but I don't think many people would put them high on a list of requirements for a race.
If anybody is interested the figures are in a spreadsheet here.Div 1 stats 2007
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There are already too many Div 1's.
Anne, can you please STOP perpetuating this myth of Nick Penfold's.
What you meant to say is that there are too many promotions from Div 1 to Prem currently because at every Div 1 race someone has to win and you only need three wins to get yourself promoted.
If this means we are forced to have less Div 1 races then change the way paddlers are promoted. PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANY MORE DIV 1 RACES!!
Div 1 is the lifeblood of UK slalom - without it we won't have any slalom racing in the UK because there will be no one left to run slalom events.
If anything, we should be encouraging more clubs to run events at all levels to encourage more paddlers to participate. If all they hear is events need to be reduced then where is the incentive to make the effort.
Fix the way we promote paddlers - don't reduce the number of races.
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djberriman
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I don't think reducing the number of div 1's would have any effect on attendance apart from possibly meaning some people just give up completely due to cost and time constraints.
Working on the basis that events are spread evenly around the country this means based purely on cost (which is THE major problem these days) paddlers will attend less events. Their budget will only stretch so far. They will probably still not attend those events too far away and have less they can afford to attend.
As Boat Sherpa says lets not ruin the sport just to solve a perceived problem with promotions. All you will end up with is less people in Div 1 meaning it will be less competitive and making it easier to get promoted.
Working on the basis that events are spread evenly around the country this means based purely on cost (which is THE major problem these days) paddlers will attend less events. Their budget will only stretch so far. They will probably still not attend those events too far away and have less they can afford to attend.
As Boat Sherpa says lets not ruin the sport just to solve a perceived problem with promotions. All you will end up with is less people in Div 1 meaning it will be less competitive and making it easier to get promoted.
[quote]What you meant to say is that there are too many promotions from Div 1 to Prem currently because at every Div 1 race someone has to win and you only need three wins to get yourself promoted.
If you look at Div 1 Mens K1 only eight gained promotion and no one won 3 it took all promotees the best of 5 races.
If you look at Div 1 Mens K1 only eight gained promotion and no one won 3 it took all promotees the best of 5 races.
I have a couple of reasons for reducing the number of Div 1 events.
Firstly, race preparation is meaningless if you are racing every other weekend. We have an 8-month long season, a race a month should be sufficient. With a summer gap, that would mean 7 races a year, a few of which could be doubles.
Secondly reducing the number of div 1s would help clubs to run more successful lower division events. The problem a lot of the more slalom orientated clubs have is that they find it difficult to run a lower division event on the same day as a div 1 event, as the bulk of their experienced members are away. Also, having a few young div 1 paddlers around at the lower division events is great for the up-and-coming youngsters.
Finally, as Boat Sherpa says, if the number of races is reduced, the promotion system must be changed at the same time to compensate. However this could be handled by a return to end of season promotions. This would allow the committee some degree of discretion so that they can adjust the balance of divisions.
Firstly, race preparation is meaningless if you are racing every other weekend. We have an 8-month long season, a race a month should be sufficient. With a summer gap, that would mean 7 races a year, a few of which could be doubles.
Secondly reducing the number of div 1s would help clubs to run more successful lower division events. The problem a lot of the more slalom orientated clubs have is that they find it difficult to run a lower division event on the same day as a div 1 event, as the bulk of their experienced members are away. Also, having a few young div 1 paddlers around at the lower division events is great for the up-and-coming youngsters.
Finally, as Boat Sherpa says, if the number of races is reduced, the promotion system must be changed at the same time to compensate. However this could be handled by a return to end of season promotions. This would allow the committee some degree of discretion so that they can adjust the balance of divisions.
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djberriman
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If you have enough Div 1 events then paddlers can afford to miss one to help run their own events whether they are willing to do that for the good of their own club is another matter.
If you find that the current schedule conflicts with your training pattern you do not have to attend every event - surely it is better to be able to pick and choose rather than fit your training around a fixed calendar where you must attend nearly every event.
As pointed out above very few people attend every event, so reducing them further just reduces choice which means it is even further reduced when taking into account conflicting events such as club events and other things outside canoeing (what!)
If you find that the current schedule conflicts with your training pattern you do not have to attend every event - surely it is better to be able to pick and choose rather than fit your training around a fixed calendar where you must attend nearly every event.
As pointed out above very few people attend every event, so reducing them further just reduces choice which means it is even further reduced when taking into account conflicting events such as club events and other things outside canoeing (what!)
That's the exact point Duncan - well said. Things outside canoeing :O
Div 1 unfortunately due to lower numbers in the sport in general has to have the two faces. One to service the needs of our up and coming superstars, and the other to keep old timers like Duncan (sorry mate) and me happy. We have other things on and forcing things to only 7 weekends a year (actually Prem is 8 weekends a year!) will just mean some of us don't race anymore, or do so little we end up bouncing back and forth from Div 2.
Personally I don't think end of season promotion is something good to go back to, but it shouldn't ever affect me. I think we should go the other way and have fixed points for demotion as well. I'm sure there's a few with an anxious wait currently.
On the subject of promotion levels - some facts (K1M): 8 demoted from Prem last year and 8 promoted to Prem this year - a good balance? Out of 80 in Prem total this year, only 69 have raced. 1 of those is a recent promotee, giving 10 Prem's from last year who haven't raced this year. While I suspect a few of those, or others will apply for ranking status, we are currently down 10 prem paddlers? Thus following the logic of less races to get less promotions we now need more races?
Div 1 unfortunately due to lower numbers in the sport in general has to have the two faces. One to service the needs of our up and coming superstars, and the other to keep old timers like Duncan (sorry mate) and me happy. We have other things on and forcing things to only 7 weekends a year (actually Prem is 8 weekends a year!) will just mean some of us don't race anymore, or do so little we end up bouncing back and forth from Div 2.
Personally I don't think end of season promotion is something good to go back to, but it shouldn't ever affect me. I think we should go the other way and have fixed points for demotion as well. I'm sure there's a few with an anxious wait currently.
On the subject of promotion levels - some facts (K1M): 8 demoted from Prem last year and 8 promoted to Prem this year - a good balance? Out of 80 in Prem total this year, only 69 have raced. 1 of those is a recent promotee, giving 10 Prem's from last year who haven't raced this year. While I suspect a few of those, or others will apply for ranking status, we are currently down 10 prem paddlers? Thus following the logic of less races to get less promotions we now need more races?