Sorry if I widen the debate a little but surely the real problem is that we are not encouraging enough people into our sport. There are too few clubs and the few that exist aren't attracting new slalom paddlers fast enough.
Barry Peake - a Previous Slalom committee Chairman suggested that each slalom club should aim to bring ten new people to slalom each year. Doesn't seam a very big target but how many clubs are acheiving that?
How many of the writers on this page are members of clubs?
What are these clubs doing to bring more youngsters into slalom?
What are you doing to bring more youngsters into slalom?
Race Calendar for 2008
-
djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
I'm sure plenty of the posters do plenty for slalom where they can.
Perhaps the question we should all be asking is why we only get 70 d1 men even at the most popular event, that is less than half the ranked div1 paddlers registered. More paddlers would make it easier for clubs to make a profit and mean more competition.
I guess the sport is run for the paddlers so perhaps the SC should ask the opinion of all ranked paddlers and then make some decisions.
Perhaps the question we should all be asking is why we only get 70 d1 men even at the most popular event, that is less than half the ranked div1 paddlers registered. More paddlers would make it easier for clubs to make a profit and mean more competition.
I guess the sport is run for the paddlers so perhaps the SC should ask the opinion of all ranked paddlers and then make some decisions.
Interesting post's which all make sense.
My original thought when posting this thread was that 'canoeing' is a 'green sport' no carbon emmisions (or very few) when paddling, healthy, fun, social sport etc etc, so why are we putting a great carbon footprint on the map by running about for a single day's race of about 10 mins max water time, burning up fuel and missing the social side of an overnight camp and a two day meeting?
If you are going to spend 6-8 hours driving each way for an event in Scotland or South Wales surely you want to make the most of the time and get your quality time on the water and have a good social time?
Fuel prices are increasing again, the cost of travelling to events has to be justified, if we want to encourage more people into the sport we need to look at giving them value for money, getting promoted into Prem/Div1 with one day events is not going to do that, that is why a lot of paddlers may want to stay in the lower div's because that way they get a two day event and a social side as well.
I know personally that having talked to other paddlers and in what we have done ourselves this year that we/they have not attended as many events this year as they have not been worthwhile due to the travel/cost/social implications for a one day event.
Maybe time for a rethink for next year?? If not I believe numbers participating will drop lower!
My original thought when posting this thread was that 'canoeing' is a 'green sport' no carbon emmisions (or very few) when paddling, healthy, fun, social sport etc etc, so why are we putting a great carbon footprint on the map by running about for a single day's race of about 10 mins max water time, burning up fuel and missing the social side of an overnight camp and a two day meeting?
If you are going to spend 6-8 hours driving each way for an event in Scotland or South Wales surely you want to make the most of the time and get your quality time on the water and have a good social time?
Fuel prices are increasing again, the cost of travelling to events has to be justified, if we want to encourage more people into the sport we need to look at giving them value for money, getting promoted into Prem/Div1 with one day events is not going to do that, that is why a lot of paddlers may want to stay in the lower div's because that way they get a two day event and a social side as well.
I know personally that having talked to other paddlers and in what we have done ourselves this year that we/they have not attended as many events this year as they have not been worthwhile due to the travel/cost/social implications for a one day event.
Maybe time for a rethink for next year?? If not I believe numbers participating will drop lower!
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
From a Div1 perspective:
Combining as many Sat prem events, with Sun div1 events enable those who want to paddle for a whole weekend to do so, whilst paying for only 1 day if they judge on the other. Attending only 1 day also impacts less on family life for those with such pressures.
I haven't yet judged at a Prem race, but when I have time it seems a great opportunity to watch the best paddlers in the country, and have a chance to try paddling a Prem course with no pressure.
However, Prem paddlers may not like to always race the day before div1, and lose a chance to practice on the river.
Combining as many Sat prem events, with Sun div1 events enable those who want to paddle for a whole weekend to do so, whilst paying for only 1 day if they judge on the other. Attending only 1 day also impacts less on family life for those with such pressures.
I haven't yet judged at a Prem race, but when I have time it seems a great opportunity to watch the best paddlers in the country, and have a chance to try paddling a Prem course with no pressure.
However, Prem paddlers may not like to always race the day before div1, and lose a chance to practice on the river.
People who organise and run events and the timing team, section judges and jury are in the main not competing themselves, but are freely giving their services to give something back to a sport they and/or their children have enjoyed. Obviously, there is a limit to the number of weekends these volunteers will commit to, and this must be taken into account when discussing the number of events.
However, whilst there is pressure on the volunteers who fill the above roles, I am concerned that we, almost inevitably, always seem to be short of volunteers to fill gate judging and other less specific roles. The lack of volunteers has sometimes meant that section judges end up doing a full section judge stint and then covering for the lack of gate judges. What is worse, is when the lack of gate judge volunteers means that someone is only gate judging as they have had their arm twisted and, resenting this fact, does a poor job. Such circumstances obviously may have a negative impact on the willingness of section judges to attend events.
One of the reasons for having a Prem after a Div 1 is that we do, surprise surprise, get a much better turnout of Prem paddlers willing to judge than if we asked them to stay on an extra day after their competition. If this is unfair for those Prem paddlers who don't judge then so be it (I would be more concerned at the advantage paddlers who can paddle HPP regularly have over those who can't)! However, I would have hoped that paddlers who have reached Prem (and/or their parents) would be more willing to give something back by volunteering to judge in any case.
I know there are many prem Paddlers/parents who do give a phenomenal amount of time back to the sport, but there are some who seem to be very self-centred. For example, at the International this weekend (where paddlers were asked to judge as there were insufficient volunteer gate judges), I (as chief judge) asked the parent of one Prem paddler (who had done his son's judging stint) to put additional information on his judging sheet next time he judged. His negative response, "I didn't ask to do it", was very disappointing. Whilst I know paddlers, or their parents, don't necessarily enjoy judging, I would have hoped that ,when called upon to so do (as they can be under the rules), they would endeavour to do it to the best of their ability. (I wonder what this parent would think if his son lost points due to another paddler's appeal being upheld purely because the gate judge had failed to write sufficient details on the sheet.)
However, whilst there is pressure on the volunteers who fill the above roles, I am concerned that we, almost inevitably, always seem to be short of volunteers to fill gate judging and other less specific roles. The lack of volunteers has sometimes meant that section judges end up doing a full section judge stint and then covering for the lack of gate judges. What is worse, is when the lack of gate judge volunteers means that someone is only gate judging as they have had their arm twisted and, resenting this fact, does a poor job. Such circumstances obviously may have a negative impact on the willingness of section judges to attend events.
One of the reasons for having a Prem after a Div 1 is that we do, surprise surprise, get a much better turnout of Prem paddlers willing to judge than if we asked them to stay on an extra day after their competition. If this is unfair for those Prem paddlers who don't judge then so be it (I would be more concerned at the advantage paddlers who can paddle HPP regularly have over those who can't)! However, I would have hoped that paddlers who have reached Prem (and/or their parents) would be more willing to give something back by volunteering to judge in any case.
I know there are many prem Paddlers/parents who do give a phenomenal amount of time back to the sport, but there are some who seem to be very self-centred. For example, at the International this weekend (where paddlers were asked to judge as there were insufficient volunteer gate judges), I (as chief judge) asked the parent of one Prem paddler (who had done his son's judging stint) to put additional information on his judging sheet next time he judged. His negative response, "I didn't ask to do it", was very disappointing. Whilst I know paddlers, or their parents, don't necessarily enjoy judging, I would have hoped that ,when called upon to so do (as they can be under the rules), they would endeavour to do it to the best of their ability. (I wonder what this parent would think if his son lost points due to another paddler's appeal being upheld purely because the gate judge had failed to write sufficient details on the sheet.)
All ranked padlers have a say in any of the rules etc via their club at the ACM. If you have a rule change you would like to see discussed and adopted - get your club to put it forward, seconded by another club and it will go on the agenda' ans come along and debate it.
e.g. if you think demotion should be at a set level - propose it! If you don't like the way Div 1's are going - come along and say so, the calander is ratified and accepted by all at the ACM not just the committee - we put together what clubs want to run!
Don't expect the committee to do everything - you have your voice use it!
e.g. if you think demotion should be at a set level - propose it! If you don't like the way Div 1's are going - come along and say so, the calander is ratified and accepted by all at the ACM not just the committee - we put together what clubs want to run!
Don't expect the committee to do everything - you have your voice use it!
-
PaulBolton
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:30 pm
- Location: Lincoln
Hi all, Hopefully I won't upset Anne further by adding my view outside of a committee meeting.
I paddle Div 1 whilst my young son (9) is very keen and paddles Div 4. Last year we did a total of 12 events (7 for him and the 5 for me, including Washburn and Llandysul). With fuel, entry fees, food etc I reckon I spent £80-£100 per slalom, especially as the whole family usually travels. Our choice of events, therefore, has to be an "investment appraisal" and doubles simply represent great value for money as fuel is invariably the biggest cost (and seems to increase by the second). Additionally, I aspire to stay in Div1 but prioritise my son's events whereever possible - he has potential whereas I'm greatful every morning just for being spared!! A couple more Div 1 doubles would allow a lot more flexibility and I'd welcome them enormously.
I paddle Div 1 whilst my young son (9) is very keen and paddles Div 4. Last year we did a total of 12 events (7 for him and the 5 for me, including Washburn and Llandysul). With fuel, entry fees, food etc I reckon I spent £80-£100 per slalom, especially as the whole family usually travels. Our choice of events, therefore, has to be an "investment appraisal" and doubles simply represent great value for money as fuel is invariably the biggest cost (and seems to increase by the second). Additionally, I aspire to stay in Div1 but prioritise my son's events whereever possible - he has potential whereas I'm greatful every morning just for being spared!! A couple more Div 1 doubles would allow a lot more flexibility and I'd welcome them enormously.
Well said Paul, exactly the point I was making, I think that £80-£100 is probably being conservative per event, a trip to Tully for a weekend usually costs us in the region of £250-300 with fuel, campsite, entry fee's etc. so to go there for a single event is out of the question Bala & Shepperton about the same, you can have a nice week away for the same money if you are camping/caravaning.
Double events have got to be the way forward for the future, sorry Anne but this is something that the Slalom Committee should be thinking about encouraging people into the sport and reducing cost's.
Double events have got to be the way forward for the future, sorry Anne but this is something that the Slalom Committee should be thinking about encouraging people into the sport and reducing cost's.
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
Ray wrote:One of the reasons for having a Prem after a Div 1 is that we do, surprise surprise, get a much better turnout of Prem paddlers willing to judge than if we asked them to stay on an extra day after their competition.
When single day prem events are put on a weekend with a div1 on the other day, which should come first ?
Number of paddling judges (NUMBERS BELOW) is always lower on the Sunday compared to the Saturday regardless of whether the Prem event is first or second.
This yr there were 2 events with div1 on Sat, prem on Sun:
Graveyard Sat 52, Sun 19
Tees Sat 42, Sun 14
and 2 in 2006
Tees Sat 28, Sun 18
Tryweryn Sat 51, Sun 7
This yr there were 2 events with Prem on Sat, div1 on Sun:
HPP Sat 34, Sun 32
Llangollen Sat 29, Sun 23
Conclusion: Prem on Sat, Div1 on Sun leads to a more equal number of paddling judges on both days with an increased number on Sunday. Also the greatest number of div1 paddlers are stretching themselves on the more difficult Prem course. It seems those in a higher division are more motivated to stay on Sunday and do judge's runs.
I would expect the same principle could be applied to div1/2 combined weekends where each division is on a different day (if on the same day judges are even harder to obtain)
This yr there were 2 events with div2 on Sat, div1 on Sun:
Shepperton Sat 33, Sun 12
HPP Sat 48, Sun 23
There were no events with div1 on Sat, div2 on Sun which seems strange given the above, as you would expect a good number of judges on Sunday, and the highest number of div2 paddlers experiencing a div1 course. In the case of HPP it would have given more div2 paddlers a chance to practice at HPP, who need the practice on such a course more than div1 paddlers)
Every attempt should be made to minimise the number of single day/single division events.
Weekends with the same division on both days do reduce fuel for those that attend, and seem ideal for Tully and Llandysul where most travel a long way, however compared to a mixed division weekend (1 day each):
1) The impact of missing a weekend is greater
2) Less chance to catch up with friends who have been promoted/demoted/left behind...
3) Entry fees are more, for the same availability of paddling
4) There are less weekends of racing to attend, so more risk of 'dead zones' in the calender.
5) Less chance for lower division paddlers to experience harder courses, and watch better paddlers.
6) Less judges available
ps. I'm a newly promoted div1 paddler who will count himself very lucky if he avoids demotion having just scraped in at the end of the yr. As the only active slalom paddler in my club, I won't be attending any faraway meetings and adding further to my carbon footprint.
So essentially we're around full circle again to where we were last year - where does the future lie in structure of the sport? Did anything come of the Competiton Review other than the move to best 4/3 wins in Div 2 & 3 and abolition of equal points rule? The link doesn't work any more so not sure what's happening there?
I think we do have to seriously look at the amount of travelling involved in the sport, and I don't think it'll come by clubs piecemeal proposing changes at the ACM.
However as the sticking plaster for next year's calendar, I would say let's at least not reduce the number of Div 1 doubles. I know the first draft of the 2007 calendar had both the Washburn and Llandysul doubles down as single Div 1's.
I think we do have to seriously look at the amount of travelling involved in the sport, and I don't think it'll come by clubs piecemeal proposing changes at the ACM.
However as the sticking plaster for next year's calendar, I would say let's at least not reduce the number of Div 1 doubles. I know the first draft of the 2007 calendar had both the Washburn and Llandysul doubles down as single Div 1's.
-
PaulBolton
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:30 pm
- Location: Lincoln
If there were no Div1 double events I couldn't do 5 single events to stay in Div 1 and take my son to his Div 4 events. If the 2008 calender reduces the number of Div 1 doubles then I will, with huge disappointment, prioritise on my son and probably stop competing myself. I don't think I'd be the only one. Is this good for the sport? Surely the best option is a sensible mix? My daughter competes at horsey events so we have to balance very carefully where we "invest" the ever-shrinking fun-money and the kids always get first call!! Wether choosing events for myself or my lad, I look for doubles first, if not exclusively. Indeed, I will drive past a single to get to a double as better value for money.
To create more double events my questions here would be:
Firstly - It would not be practical to increase the number of races by just making single events doubles as this increases the commitment and pressure put on the timing team and section judges at Div 1's and prem's remember, many of these do not have paddlers anymore and are at events at a financial cost to themselves as exlenses only partially cover the cost. To even maintain the status quo we would have to sacrifice some events to make others doubles, which one??
Secondly - If we create doubles we loose Dive 2's or prems scheduled to run on the other day where do we run these?? Running races is hard work, there are few enough clubs prepared to run races as it is.
Thirdly - How do we ensure sufficient judges if all one division over the weekend, having different divs Sat & Sun generally increases the number of people at the races therefore the number of willing judges.
Remember Paul I am sure it won't be long before your lad is in Div 2, many Div 1's run along div 2's and then prem, again Div 1's run along Prem's. Will you then want us to go back to multi div events??
I am fully aware of the cost implications of going to events, both my husband & I used to compete but once our boys got really into slalom that came to an end as it was impossible to do everything, and in those days there wass no such thing as a double event, they did teams! We have now been supporting our boys for 20 years and like you we have a daughter who doesn't canoe - like yours she has a horse so I do understand!
There is no easy solution we can never please all of the people all of the time! Unfortunately it is unlikely there will be any major changes this year as it is now only a month to the ACM and the calander is being put together for ratifying there. Debates over it however do happen and so do changes if voted in by the clubs.
Firstly - It would not be practical to increase the number of races by just making single events doubles as this increases the commitment and pressure put on the timing team and section judges at Div 1's and prem's remember, many of these do not have paddlers anymore and are at events at a financial cost to themselves as exlenses only partially cover the cost. To even maintain the status quo we would have to sacrifice some events to make others doubles, which one??
Secondly - If we create doubles we loose Dive 2's or prems scheduled to run on the other day where do we run these?? Running races is hard work, there are few enough clubs prepared to run races as it is.
Thirdly - How do we ensure sufficient judges if all one division over the weekend, having different divs Sat & Sun generally increases the number of people at the races therefore the number of willing judges.
Remember Paul I am sure it won't be long before your lad is in Div 2, many Div 1's run along div 2's and then prem, again Div 1's run along Prem's. Will you then want us to go back to multi div events??
I am fully aware of the cost implications of going to events, both my husband & I used to compete but once our boys got really into slalom that came to an end as it was impossible to do everything, and in those days there wass no such thing as a double event, they did teams! We have now been supporting our boys for 20 years and like you we have a daughter who doesn't canoe - like yours she has a horse so I do understand!
There is no easy solution we can never please all of the people all of the time! Unfortunately it is unlikely there will be any major changes this year as it is now only a month to the ACM and the calander is being put together for ratifying there. Debates over it however do happen and so do changes if voted in by the clubs.
-
PaulBolton
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:30 pm
- Location: Lincoln
Anne,
everything you say makes perfect sense. I think this is a really healthy discussion that has potential to inform important future decisions. I have absolutely nothing against mixed division events and did the HPP one in Sep (badly) and Llandysul. I simply wanted to show that the present balance of Div 1 doubles is, in my opinion, the minimum. A couple more would be great from my perspective, but not something I'd remonstrate about as I fully accept there are many compromises needed and you articulate most above. However, not having any Div 1 doubles would have wider impact. Also, can't competitors be press-ganged into judging when essential?
Cheers,
Paul
everything you say makes perfect sense. I think this is a really healthy discussion that has potential to inform important future decisions. I have absolutely nothing against mixed division events and did the HPP one in Sep (badly) and Llandysul. I simply wanted to show that the present balance of Div 1 doubles is, in my opinion, the minimum. A couple more would be great from my perspective, but not something I'd remonstrate about as I fully accept there are many compromises needed and you articulate most above. However, not having any Div 1 doubles would have wider impact. Also, can't competitors be press-ganged into judging when essential?
Cheers,
Paul
I do not have a problem with the events we had this year in Div1, there seems to be a good mix of races Div1 & 2 on same weekends and Double races. All we need are the races spread out a little more evenly because financially for some people three races weekend after weekend is a big ask as well as family commitments. I hear the same old excuses time after time about time needed for team members to race abroad or organisers will not be able to cope etc etc. but there is a sufficient number of races for this not to affect there end of season rankings and new modern timing kit and judges kit would save organisers a lot of time over a weekend, as many slaloms get delayed due to faulty old kit that the commitee has not been bothered to update.
katonas wrote:Number of paddling judges (NUMBERS BELOW) is always lower on the Sunday compared to the Saturday regardless of whether the Prem event is first or second.
This yr there were 2 events with div1 on Sat, prem on Sun:
Graveyard Sat 52, Sun 19
Tees Sat 42, Sun 14
and 2 in 2006
Tees Sat 28, Sun 18
Tryweryn Sat 51, Sun 7
This yr there were 2 events with Prem on Sat, div1 on Sun:
HPP Sat 34, Sun 32
Llangollen Sat 29, Sun 23
Conclusion: Prem on Sat, Div1 on Sun leads to a more equal number of paddling judges on both days with an increased number on Sunday. Also the greatest number of div1 paddlers are stretching themselves on the more difficult Prem course. It seems those in a higher division are more motivated to stay on Sunday and do judge's runs.
It should be noted that the P/1 and 1/P numbers as stated above are misleading as there are other factors which would affect judging numbers on several of those weekends:
The Graveyard Prem this year was also a J16 selection event so it is possible that there were Prems judging on Saturday purely as they were going for selection on Sunday and certainly on Sunday there were 23 non-Prems who raced selection, who might otherwise have judged.
The same situation pertained in 2006 for the Graveyard.
The organisers for Tees this year, as I understand it, closed entries a fortnight before the event. This may have drastically reduced the number of div 1s attending as I suspect Prems may be better at getting their entries in on time. Certainly 42 for K1M is a low turn out for a Tees div 1.
HPP this year was also a Pan-Celtic event.
Llangollen was originally a 2 day Prem event with heats/semis/final. One can thus imagine that many Prems intended attending both days for this event and so, after it had changed to a single day event, decided to stay and judge as they had booked accommodation anyway!
Given these additional factors, the conclusion stated above is not justified.