Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier !
Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
Good rule change to remove age restriction for Junior Champs prizes but why allow same competitor to win multiple age prizes in the same class?
Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
Hi
It was in the rule book as a change this year which I guess happened at the last ACM ....I think it was because last year a young paddler was the fastest J16 but was only allowed to win the J12 (or similar) prize for their age group, so they changed it so that he/she could win all up to the highest.
The logic is there, but you are right, it does have some consequences that may need a bit of a re-thinking through...ie if J12 wins the J16 they take home about 5 trophies and it's a very small number of people at prize-giving....! We were dreading that happening!
It was in the rule book as a change this year which I guess happened at the last ACM ....I think it was because last year a young paddler was the fastest J16 but was only allowed to win the J12 (or similar) prize for their age group, so they changed it so that he/she could win all up to the highest.
The logic is there, but you are right, it does have some consequences that may need a bit of a re-thinking through...ie if J12 wins the J16 they take home about 5 trophies and it's a very small number of people at prize-giving....! We were dreading that happening!
Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
My opinion (for what it's worth) is that any Junior would want to be awarded with the highest age category prize that their performance justified i.e. If a J12 paddler happened to be the fastest J14 paddler as well then they would want to be awarded with the J14 award.
If you are a J14 paddler in this race then you would need to be faster than anyone else who was under 14 to be awarded with the Junior 14 prize. If you were not then how can you be the best J14?
I also think however that this should then remove the award winner from the J12 competition so that the second fastest J12 paddler could also win an award. By being the fastest J14 it sort of suggests that they were also faster than any J12 paddler anyway.
I am not sure how to go about getting matters like this discussed and resolved.
Can anyone advise?
Steve
If you are a J14 paddler in this race then you would need to be faster than anyone else who was under 14 to be awarded with the Junior 14 prize. If you were not then how can you be the best J14?
I also think however that this should then remove the award winner from the J12 competition so that the second fastest J12 paddler could also win an award. By being the fastest J14 it sort of suggests that they were also faster than any J12 paddler anyway.
I am not sure how to go about getting matters like this discussed and resolved.
Can anyone advise?
Steve
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SilverSurfer
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Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
I wasn't aware of the rule change, and life is too short to read through the slalom book each year for changes.
It would have been useful if the British champion rules had been published at the race weekend as they were last year at Llandysul.
If the intent of the competition is to find the fastest junior champion on the day, then there should be a single prize per class, and scrap the individual age categories.
However, if the intent of the competition is to find the fastest in each age category, then it does not matter if a lower age category beats a higher age category. The fastest paddler in their age category should take the prize, so no multi age category winners.
At the moment the rule change is a bit of both and I'm not sure what it's trying to achieve.
I'm happy to support either format, but the current format doesn't work for me.
It would have been useful if the British champion rules had been published at the race weekend as they were last year at Llandysul.
If the intent of the competition is to find the fastest junior champion on the day, then there should be a single prize per class, and scrap the individual age categories.
However, if the intent of the competition is to find the fastest in each age category, then it does not matter if a lower age category beats a higher age category. The fastest paddler in their age category should take the prize, so no multi age category winners.
At the moment the rule change is a bit of both and I'm not sure what it's trying to achieve.
I'm happy to support either format, but the current format doesn't work for me.
Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
Hi
Just had a look and it was in the October 2012 minutes to clarify in the 2013 yearbook, but also recognised there as inconistent, so no harm in revisiting if people want to. I think it's through representation at the ACM.
Yes, probably worth highlighting on the day - I haven't been to Llandysul, so wasn't aware it was done there
Just had a look and it was in the October 2012 minutes to clarify in the 2013 yearbook, but also recognised there as inconistent, so no harm in revisiting if people want to. I think it's through representation at the ACM.
Yes, probably worth highlighting on the day - I haven't been to Llandysul, so wasn't aware it was done there
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BaldockBabe
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Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
Doesn't it entirely depend on what the purpose of the championship is and what the "winner" is going to use their "title for"?
If I were a 14 year old that had beaten all 14, 15, and 16 year olds I would want to have the title for J14, J15, and J16. From my point of view being able to advertise myself to potential sponsors, schools, unis etc it would sound far better for me to be the top J16 even if I were only 14. In fact, if I am the fastest of all of them then I AM the top J16.
It is illogical to me that a J16 beaten by a J14 could claim that they were the top J16, they are not, they are the top person that happens to be aged between 15 and 16, the top person aged under 16 is the J14 that beat them.
If we went for the other system and the winning J14 was then given the J16 prize and the next paddler (say another J14)got the J15 prize and so on then we are saying that the "top" J14 is in fact the third from top J14. That doesn't seem logical either? This seems to be a case of spreading around prizes just to keep the juniors happy and devaluing the title.
I am not sure I can entirely see what is wrong with what happened other than a J14 paddler getting a lot of trophies. If people want to avoid that they are going to need to get the J15 and J16s to paddle faster...
If I were a 14 year old that had beaten all 14, 15, and 16 year olds I would want to have the title for J14, J15, and J16. From my point of view being able to advertise myself to potential sponsors, schools, unis etc it would sound far better for me to be the top J16 even if I were only 14. In fact, if I am the fastest of all of them then I AM the top J16.
It is illogical to me that a J16 beaten by a J14 could claim that they were the top J16, they are not, they are the top person that happens to be aged between 15 and 16, the top person aged under 16 is the J14 that beat them.
If we went for the other system and the winning J14 was then given the J16 prize and the next paddler (say another J14)got the J15 prize and so on then we are saying that the "top" J14 is in fact the third from top J14. That doesn't seem logical either? This seems to be a case of spreading around prizes just to keep the juniors happy and devaluing the title.
I am not sure I can entirely see what is wrong with what happened other than a J14 paddler getting a lot of trophies. If people want to avoid that they are going to need to get the J15 and J16s to paddle faster...
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BaldockBabe
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Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
P.S. Yes, to make changes it would be aproposal to the ACM. CanadianPaddler would be best to say how this is done since it has been a while since I did it.
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SilverSurfer
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Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
That was the point I made in my posting above, what is the intent of the competition. There are two options:
"If the intent of the competition is to find the fastest junior champion on the day, then there should be a single prize per class, and scrap the individual age categories. "
"If intent of the competition is to find the fastest in each age category, then it does not matter if a lower age category beats a higher age category. The fastest paddler in their age category should take the prize, so no multi age category winners"
A present it is a mix of both, which doesn't make sense. Having said that, I'm not even convinced by the competition itself. Much like the English Championship, the winners are never published, and those competing are probably more interested in the points they picked up for the divisional system?
"If the intent of the competition is to find the fastest junior champion on the day, then there should be a single prize per class, and scrap the individual age categories. "
"If intent of the competition is to find the fastest in each age category, then it does not matter if a lower age category beats a higher age category. The fastest paddler in their age category should take the prize, so no multi age category winners"
A present it is a mix of both, which doesn't make sense. Having said that, I'm not even convinced by the competition itself. Much like the English Championship, the winners are never published, and those competing are probably more interested in the points they picked up for the divisional system?
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Canadian Paddler
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Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
http://s397900707.websitehome.co.uk/php ... f=1&t=2199 covers how to put a motion,
The age categories are UNDER 16, UNDER 14 etc. not 16 year old, 14 year old. So a J10 is eligible for all prizes are they are under 18,17,16 . . . .
At events I try to spread the prizes, so the J18 prize goes to the top junior who did not get a main prize, regardless of age, the J16 goes to the paddler under 16, who has not already got a prize etc. I would never give an 18 year old the junior prize if he/she was beaten by a 12 year old.
BUT at the weekend the prizes were for British Champions. The Top Under 18 is the best paddler under 18, regardless of age, (see above) Then is the British under 16 champion really the second best under 16 paddler? It seems to me that there is a difference between BRITISH CHAMPION and event prizes. But feel free to disagree, you may convince the community.
Personally you will never convince me to give a J18 prize, or championship to a paddler beaten by someone younger than themselves, the same goes for all junior prizes.
Looking at the other end, with deluded self interest
, I also believe that if next year I beat all the over 35s I will be the British Veteran Champion, not the over 50s champ, with some whippersnapper of 36 taking the Veterans champion title.
The age categories are UNDER 16, UNDER 14 etc. not 16 year old, 14 year old. So a J10 is eligible for all prizes are they are under 18,17,16 . . . .
At events I try to spread the prizes, so the J18 prize goes to the top junior who did not get a main prize, regardless of age, the J16 goes to the paddler under 16, who has not already got a prize etc. I would never give an 18 year old the junior prize if he/she was beaten by a 12 year old.
BUT at the weekend the prizes were for British Champions. The Top Under 18 is the best paddler under 18, regardless of age, (see above) Then is the British under 16 champion really the second best under 16 paddler? It seems to me that there is a difference between BRITISH CHAMPION and event prizes. But feel free to disagree, you may convince the community.
Personally you will never convince me to give a J18 prize, or championship to a paddler beaten by someone younger than themselves, the same goes for all junior prizes.
Looking at the other end, with deluded self interest
, I also believe that if next year I beat all the over 35s I will be the British Veteran Champion, not the over 50s champ, with some whippersnapper of 36 taking the Veterans champion title.All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
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BaldockBabe
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Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
Whether Junior or Vet I think the first step has to be getting into a boatCanadian Paddler wrote: Looking at the other end, with deluded self interest
Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
How much space does the winning British,Junior Champion need to store a potential 6 trophies?
Why when there is the potential to help several juniors with sponsorship and squad selection are juniors allowed to win multiple trophies?
Why when there is the potential to help several juniors with sponsorship and squad selection are juniors allowed to win multiple trophies?
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BaldockBabe
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Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
I am not sure how that works, surely only the top J14, J15, J16 can truely say they are top J14, J15, J16 to potential sponsors, not the one that was awared the J14 prize because the truely top J14 was given the J16 prize, the next best J14 was given the J15 prize etc or using the alternative system how can a J16 claim to be the top J16 when in fact they were beaten by a J14 but the J14 was awarded the J14 prize?Veronica wrote:
Why when there is the potential to help several juniors with sponsorship and squad selection are juniors allowed to win multiple trophies?
With squad selection is that not based on performance throughout the year rather than on performance at one event?
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SilverSurfer
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Re: Tees Barrage Div 1/2/Junior and Vet Champs, and Premier
I still don't see an answer to my original question, what is the intent of the British Junior Championship ?
Is it to find the best J16 or under on the day or to have individual age categories? Are you competing against all ages, or just those in your age category?
Personally, I think a single prize for the J16 or under on the day would be best, and resolve all the uncertainty.
In addition to this, there should be a J16, J15, J14 etc prize awarded at the end of the season based on you national rankings. At the moment there aren't any prizes yet we have the league tables.
To me this would be far better and a workable solution and ties in with squad selection and potential sponsorship as its based on your national ranking position at the end of the year and not on a one day race.
For example in football, a club would rather win the premier league title than the FA Cup. Winning the title over a year has far more kudos than a one off game, which invariable will go against the form book. To prove my point, looking back at what started this conversation, a J12 winning the race last year at Llandysul, where did that same paddler finish this years race!
Is it to find the best J16 or under on the day or to have individual age categories? Are you competing against all ages, or just those in your age category?
Personally, I think a single prize for the J16 or under on the day would be best, and resolve all the uncertainty.
In addition to this, there should be a J16, J15, J14 etc prize awarded at the end of the season based on you national rankings. At the moment there aren't any prizes yet we have the league tables.
To me this would be far better and a workable solution and ties in with squad selection and potential sponsorship as its based on your national ranking position at the end of the year and not on a one day race.
For example in football, a club would rather win the premier league title than the FA Cup. Winning the title over a year has far more kudos than a one off game, which invariable will go against the form book. To prove my point, looking back at what started this conversation, a J12 winning the race last year at Llandysul, where did that same paddler finish this years race!