Points calculations with DNFs

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IyaMaper
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Points calculations with DNFs

Post by IyaMaper » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:29 pm

So... Are points calculated on the number of paddlers starting the race or the number who finish? I always thought it was the number of starters and the points calculator on the website seems to imply that too but at Tryweryn on sat there were 2 classes with a paddler who started but didn’t get a time (K1M had a disqualification and C1W had a DNF) but points were calculated as if that paddler had never started.
I only noticed as one of the lads my daughter paddles with needed points in K1 to get on a squad so we used the calculator to work out his points from his position but when they hit the website rankings they were different.
Anyone clarify which it is - starters or finishers? If it is starters then do the Tryweryn results need tweaking to correct them?

Dee
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by Dee » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:49 pm

Ranked Starters, so if there is a competitor who is not ranked then their results would be ignored.
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IyaMaper
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by IyaMaper » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:52 pm

That’s what I thought. In that case the Tryweryn points from Sat for K1M and C1W are incorrect as both the K1M disqualified paddler and the C1W who didn’t get down either run were both ranked....

Dee
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by Dee » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:44 pm

But both are marked as DNS. ie did not start

Note the K1M is also marked as DSQ for whole comp, so I don’t think he would be counted in any case; based on rule 10.17.10 he would be removed and not ranked and therefore not included in the points calculations.

However, if the DNS C1W did actually start then I believe that the C1W points should have been calculated based on 8 starters rather than 7.

The results become official at the race so at this point, if you believe there has been an error then

10.17.12.b UK Where there has been an error in the result or points for an athlete, they may appeal to the Secretary of the Slalom Committee to review / amend their result. Any such amendment will only affect the points allocated to the athlete, not any other results.

In my opinion K1M results are correct though so, if I’m right, it won’t help the lad you refer to

CP may come along to tell me I’m wrong though :)
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

IyaMaper
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by IyaMaper » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:14 pm

The C1W definitely started, had a very bad swim, got concussion and then didn’t do second run for obvious reasons bless her. I guess she should have been counted in the results. The K1M who got disqualified did both runs and was disqualified at end of second so to be honest I don’t know how that affects things, I assumed that as he started then he started and was counted but maybe not. Was just asking really as it was all different to what we thought and i’m fairly new to it all so just wanted clarification. Thanks for your replies :-)

Jasper
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by Jasper » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:00 am

The C1 Men's points from both Tryweryn races may also need to be corrected as there was a Paddler who must have entered the event early as a Paddle Up but who got promoted into the host division at the previous weekend's HPP race.

They have been excluded from the general class points calculations on both days as they were still being classed as a Paddle Up entry so I assume that they did not make the race Organiser aware of the situation.

IyaMaper
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by IyaMaper » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:13 am

Oh yeah, hadn’t spotted that. I presume, looking at the rules quoted above, that paddlers affected have to appeal this themselves and it’s not a case of someone pointing these errors out to the organisers?
Maybe another newbie question but if the results become official at the race but said results (with points) aren’t posted at the race (often you just get a list of finish order and times but no points displayed) how are paddlers meant to check all is good before the results become official?

djberriman
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by djberriman » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:49 pm

IyaMaper wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:13 am
Maybe another newbie question but if the results become official at the race but said results (with points) aren’t posted at the race (often you just get a list of finish order and times but no points displayed) how are paddlers meant to check all is good before the results become official?
I've queried this before as there have been issues with results at Prem/1's before for this very reason to be told that points do not form part of the results.

At prem/1 points are calculated by a separate system (simply slalom) and not by the race software that is used by the timing team.

Personally I think points are part of the results but it is not officially stated in the rules one way or the other as far as I am aware. In fact there is very little definition of results in the rules as fasr as I can see.

Obviously the requirement changed a couple of years ago when the rule changed that results are official at the event and unfortunately it was not reflected in the rules.

CeeBee
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by CeeBee » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:25 pm

It would be good if points could be displayed as part of the results at the race as anomalies are more likely to be pointed out and can be rectified before the results are finalised. However, I appreciate that this could be a technical challenge.

The finer details of recording whether DNS, DNF and disqualified and the affect on points is interesting.

I'm comfortable with DNS not being counted. DNF should count as they started the race. I'm also inclined to think disqualified should also count for points i.e. err on the rest of the paddlers benefit as they get more points with more paddlers.

The points calculation for the paddler who was Div 1 but recorded as a PU is an interesting case. The online entry system copes very well with promotions and as an organiser you can manage the promotion so that they are racing in the host division rather than as a PU. Dee, I wonder whether this could be automatically done as I presume this paddler had already paid for a PU entry and so could be converted to a host division without the paddler and organiser intervention? [this couldn't be done for PU waiting list entries as they need to be processed individually and the place accepted so that payments can be collected].

djberriman
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by djberriman » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:00 pm

Problem with the McConkey is that its a one off (superfinal format) which complicates the results.

This may have delayed loading the results meaning it was possible that the entries for the Tryweryn race was downloaded before the paddler had been officially promoted on the ranking database and thus the entry system wouldn't know.

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Canadian Paddler
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by Canadian Paddler » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:23 pm

A small amount of digging and:

Saturdays points were on display all day Sunday, so could have been reviewed and challenged then.

Disqualified for competition boats do not count in the calculations.

Athletes who start but do not not finish should be included (top of page 87), so WC1 should be calculated basedon 8 starters (software bug aparently)

Points are part of teh results and count as final as people go off and apply for promotion / enter further competitions based on them. So unless there is a major error they are left as is, with people applyin for more races in the same division (if they thought they had just missed promotion) or the next division up if they think they just made promotion. Either has ramifications - if someone that should have been promoted paddles in a later competition, do we have to recalulate all teh points for the second race then? and if as a result someone shoudl have been promoted this can knock on....

So if a paddler wants their points recalculated they ask and it is investigated and may be re calculated.
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harratts
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by harratts » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:35 pm

Hi Colin.

Thanks for your clarification into these matters.

The C1W Paddler with a DNF that should have been included in the ranking points calculations and the C1M Paddler who was treated as a Paddle Up but who had actually already been promoted into the Host division who should have also been included in the ranking points calculations.

Rather than having several paddlers from each of these classes contact you individually could you not instigate recalculation of the ranking points for both days of the Tryweryn event for those two classes?

Those who should have been awarded more ranking points than they have currently been awarded are given the extra points but those who should have been awarded less ranking points than they have currently been given are left unchanged.

It would make for a quicker fix and a positive resolution for all affected.
Steve

CeeBee
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by CeeBee » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:34 pm

Duncan, good point re McConkey - the results did take a couple of days to go up and so not much time before Tryweryn race.

I think we need to be careful to not generate a lot of extra work for volunteers. A few points here or there don't matter. There is always another race to achieve more points.

If paddlers are reliant on points to make a squad, i think the squad needs to allow for this rather than the ranking system.

My personal opinion is that the points should stand as published.

Colin, "So if a paddler wants their points recalculated they ask and it is investigated and may be re calculated". Does this happen much?

Dee
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by Dee » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:50 am

CeeBee wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:25 pm
...
The points calculation for the paddler who was Div 1 but recorded as a PU is an interesting case. The online entry system copes very well with promotions and as an organiser you can manage the promotion so that they are racing in the host division rather than as a PU. Dee, I wonder whether this could be automatically done as I presume this paddler had already paid for a PU entry and so could be converted to a host division without the paddler and organiser intervention? [this couldn't be done for PU waiting list entries as they need to be processed individually and the place accepted so that payments can be collected].
I have considered this, but
  • it really could only apply to entries previously accepted as a paddle-up (3 to 2s at a div 2/3 race have options of cancelling etc).
  • my policy to date is to give organisers as much control as reasonably possible, this would go against that, but maybe that wouldn't matter.
  • the policy of the rules has always been that it is the paddler's responsibility to contact organiser if I automatically process some but not others then would this be confusing (having said that, as organisers are effectively notified by the system then paddler's probably make the assumption that they don't need to do so in any case)
  • There is also a dependency on when the timing team download the start list to set up the race.
The first three are not significant hurdles - the last one possibly is.

In the case concerned - the online system did not get the promotion details until 22:30 (GMT) on 29th May, ie late on Wednesday night. This is relatively late, so it would be entirely possible for the startlist to have already been down loaded and the race set up by the timing team. If we automatically process the promotions then there is nothing to show that this has happened. By leaving it as manual then the organiser can see the late promotions on line and it allows for dialogue with the timing team. Not perfect, but ...

One option could be to add something to the online startlist (not the timing team download) to highlight paddlers who have been promoted and not processed. This wouldn't necessarily make a massive difference, but might make other paddlers query the issue sooner. I don't know.

Another possibility is that when I receive promotion info, then I ping an email to anyone with entries for future races to remind them to contact the organiser.

Nothing feels very satisfactory which is why I have done nothing as yet.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
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Re: Points calculations with DNFs

Post by Dee » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:55 am

Worth noting that because the C1M concerned came 4th in a field of 22 on Sunday any paddler from position 4 downwards benefited slightly from the error.
The only C1M paddlers that received reduced points (by a small amount only) were the paddlers in 2nd and 3rd place. So to recalculate now would effectively remove points for most paddlers.

The balance is slightly different on Saturday, but I don't think Colin will be receiving a rush of requests somehow!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

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