C1 Disaster Imminent?

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
JimW
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by JimW » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:05 am

It is fair to say that my own performance in C1 this year has been absolutely appalling, partly down to not training in my slalom C1 (quite a lot of training in WWR C1) but partly due to other factors I can't even put my finger on. I am clearly not paddling anywhere near as well as I did last year, but when I look at the div 2 rankings I am still embarrassingly close to the top (although I should slip once yesterday's results are processed).

On closer inspection there is a real lack of numbers actually competing (vs ranked) in div 2 - 12 C1W and 18 C1M. Division 3 has a few more, and division 1 a few more again but with such low numbers how can we possibly continue to feed good paddlers into the top divisions? I suspect more people take up C1 as a second event and start in a higher division than actually work up through the divisions from scratch so perhaps it is to be expected that there are fewer C1s in lower divisions, but this suggests to me that we are all thinking about C1 as a second rate or second choice event.

I know a lot of clubs like to start paddlers out in K1 and then let them try C1 later, but is this just pertetuating the secondary status? Do we need to have a complete rethink at club/beginner level and try to take in equal numbers of kids to C1 as K1? Do clubs even have enough C1 paddlers to provide coaching support for this? Or boats to start kids in?

As things stand right now it looks as though C1 is heading for a slump, perhaps not at the top, we have a few truly world class C1's, but the problem is that we only have a few where other nations have tens or hundreds and not enough breadth in the lower divisions. How can we turn this around and make C1 as important as K1?

Mike Mitchell
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by Mike Mitchell » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:44 pm

Not sure you are correct Jim.

We have Two new C1 Ladies at Wyedean and one at Taunton.

All started in one division below there rankings.

So lots of swimmers at HPP last weekend.

It looks like development squads get additional funding for C1s so everyone is now pushing C1.
Boats are a problem as all clubs get more Kayaks than C1s for teaching.
So it would be good to see some funding for C1s only in Clubs.

Its hard to start out in C1 especially as nearly everyone switches nowadays.
To be a good switcher you need to be able to paddle equally on both sides, so Kayak is the best for learning this.

I think numbers of new paddlers taking up Slalom is the problem.

User avatar
davebrads
Posts: 503
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 7:43 am
Location: Tamworth
Contact:

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by davebrads » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:27 am

The jury's still out on switching, I got the distinct impression from recent races that Mallory and Kimberly are switching a lot less than they used to.
Mike Mitchell wrote:To be a good switcher you need to be able to paddle equally on both sides, so Kayak is the best for learning this.
You can't turn a kayaker into a C1 paddler just by telling them to switch whenever they need to paddle on the off side, a good C1 paddler has to have a good offside, and I think that the good switching C1 paddlers of the future will have good offsides on both sides. So the only way to coach C1 is in a C1 - and the earlier this is started the better. It's notable that our top C1M all started paddling C1 very early in their careers.

~Going back to Jim's point, we are seeing the upside-down pyramid structure across all classes, I think that it is just exaggerated in the smaller classes as it is easier to get promoted, after all it is obviously easier to get a 1st out 5 paddlers in C1M than 1st out of 40 paddlers in K1M, and then 20% of C1M paddlers get maximum points while 2.5% of K1M paddlers get maximum points, the result being that C1 paddlers get promoted more often. There are more K1W paddlers than C1M but still they will get promoted qucker than K1M. Perhaps the points system could somehow be tweaked to allow for the difference in size of the classes?

Of course the best option would be to have more equal numbers of paddlers racing across all the classes, which comes back to the issues of getting girls interested in the sport (and sport in general), having enough C1s available in clubs, and having coaches with the inclination to encourage their paddlers into C1s.

harratts
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by harratts » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:16 pm

I've thought that for a long time the way Ranking Points are awarded to the various Classes could be better.

If K1M was selected as being the control class (just because it is usually the largest and most capable class at any race) then all other classes could be compared against it for their ranking points as it is now for C2 and K1M Vet.'s.

This is not to be sexist or classist but when you are fast enough to secure high enough ranking points when compared against the K1M times (whether you class is quorate or not) then you get promoted.

If several paddlers are fast at the same event then they can all secure promotion ranking points.

If no paddler is fast enough when compared to the K1M times at the same event then none of them are awarded with promotion ranking points.

Some time adjustment % values may need to be used as they are currently for none quorate C1M, K1W and C1W classes at all events.

This approach seems to work fine for C2.
Steve

User avatar
davebrads
Posts: 503
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 7:43 am
Location: Tamworth
Contact:

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by davebrads » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:56 pm

The only issue is that percentages aren't consistent across different courses. An open course favours the speed of the K1M, while a technical course reduces the advantage over the other classes. So if we go over to % based system a clever C1 or K1W paddler should target the more technical courses, and avoid other courses where it will be difficult to score maximum points.

Nevertheless I still think it's better than what we've got now.

JoS
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:30 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by JoS » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:12 pm

Disaster Imminent is exactly what my legs say every time I try to sit in a C1. Much harder when you start as a grownup!

c2_gbr
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:08 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by c2_gbr » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:06 pm

I agree we need more C1s paddling.

To help the C1 community I have put some new C1 Technique resources out.

This hopefully can help paddlers, and also coaches understand more about C1 technique, as well as promoting C1 and enabling discussion around C1.

The site is below

https://c1canoeslalomtechnique.weebly.com

Take a look.

Mike Mitchell
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by Mike Mitchell » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:05 pm

So are we heading for a disaster at the Top of div 1 or not. Maybe its just the most competitive class.

As it stands we have the following.

9 - K1 Ladies out of 54 Promoted.

12- K1 Men out of 105 Promoted

5- C1 Ladies out of 16 promoted and one paddler with 1000 point ranked 6th

4 -C1 Men out of 38 Promoted and 7 paddlers with a 1000 point 1st place and 1 paddler with 3 x 900+ points results.

To get promotion point you need to come 1st or 2nd. So there are going to be a lot of disappointed C1 paddlers again this year. Saying that the standard in Prem is really high so they would not move far up the rankings if promoted.

In C1 Ladies it is questionable about the standard of paddlers getting promoted to Prem

So I belive the best option is to compare the C1 mens results to the K1 Men and the C1 Ladies to the K1 Ladies results. Points on a percentile of the Class.

ps. Dave there is No problem of C1s having an advantage on technical courses as this year nearly every course has been a straight sprint.

JimW
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by JimW » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:17 pm

Mike - Just compare all other classes to K1M using the factors we already use when a class is inquorate.
This provides much better granularity since K1M is pretty much always the biggest class (sometimes this might not be true at div 3), so ladies and C1s close to the top pace have a better chance of getting more points and those who are genuinely way off the pace won't be getting too many points too early.

Dan - great to see your website has some new stuff, it has been too long since I last studied it!

Scotland has a C-boat day planned for the day after Scottish champs which I think is a great idea, I really hope a lot of paddlers come along and try C1s and C2s and hopefully think about paddling them more next year.

harratts
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by harratts » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:32 am

How many paddlers (and their parents) realise that you currently only have to pay 50% of the standard race entry fee to do C2 runs at the moment.

That reduced entrance fee can then be split again between the two paddlers taking part making it £1.65 per Paddler at a Division 3 event.

Perhaps we could propose a similar (or maybe 25%) entry fee reduction for C1's to try and stimulate more interest.

Just a thought.
Steve

Dee
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by Dee » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:14 am

Fees are already too low to make competitions sustainable, so in my mind this is a non starter.

In any case, I don’t believe lowering fees for C1 would have any impact.
- We used to have multi class discount; I don’t think that its demise has had any impact on numbers entering two classes.
- I don’t believe that the C2 discount has any real impact either - a few extra scratch teams at some comps maybe, but nothing that indicates a sustained increase in regular C2 paddling

Have you looked at the price of C2s recently (rhetorical ;) ) and second hand C2s are rare and they are bigger to transport. Also only really works if you have two people who regularly paddle together. These are probably bigger barriers than the entry fee
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

paddlerparent
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by paddlerparent » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:46 am

J14 C1M promoted to Prem this year - if you have the skills you can get promoted!

WindsorCC
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by WindsorCC » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:51 pm

You should have seen Shepperton yesterday evening (or what is now known as t-grip Tuesday), there were seven of us in C1s, actually more than the kayaks! Ok, it’s a second class for all of them except me, but it was still a good group with a mix of div 1 and div 2 standard paddlers.

I certainly encourage not switching initially to learn a solid crossbow (switch if it’s faster, not because you have to), but I’ve been surprised in the past about the number of div 1 C1s who are even switching in a straight line as they can’t j-stroke. I suspect that’s down to the number who are good div 1 kayak paddlers and can then get straight up to div 1 in C1.

In terms of getting the numbers up, as Mike has said, it’s probably due to the low numbers generally rather than C1 specifically...

djberriman
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by djberriman » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:51 pm

"Perhaps the points system could somehow be tweaked to allow for the difference in size of the classes?"

This has been a thought of mine for sometime but for different reasons, a few years ago 13 paddlers raced Tully div 1/2 me included trying to get into div 1, the previous week there had been 70 at a div 2, all concerned knew that only the person who finished 1st should have bothered making the trip and it was pretty obvious who would win providing they put in a good run.

So it appears those that make an effort aren't rewarded, the rest may as well have stayed at home, this continues to this day when the entry drops because the event is seen as harder or the entry is split between two events. It may even be a reason people don't turn up at harder events as if they aren't in the top 2 there is little point(s).

My thought (but I've not gone beyond that) is that points should be awarded based on either the winner (and how far you behind them) or some sort of average or mid position such that paddlers get proportional points based on their result and not how many did or did not turn up.

Mike Mitchell
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm

Re: C1 Disaster Imminent?

Post by Mike Mitchell » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:42 pm

djberriman wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:51 pm
"Perhaps the points system could somehow be tweaked to allow for the difference in size of the classes?"

This has been a thought of mine for sometime but for different reasons.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the British Open today.
There were 3 Men C1s on the waiting list in next 10 places.
One in Prem which I presume is a late entry.
Two that have had a first places at a Div1 this year and didn't have the required percentile points.
The system we have has only allowed 16 entries and 15 of these qualified for Sundays race.

So Yes Duncan it looks like the points system could be tweaked.

Post Reply