6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

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Canadian Paddler
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6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by Canadian Paddler » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Allow organisers to specify that they do not want to accept paddle up entries for safety reasons, or capacity, such as at selection races or competitions with limited water time. The default will be to accept paddle ups at all races. ........................... Page 82
6.2.2 UK The deadline for entries to Ranking Competitions shall be 15 days prior to the first day of competition (the Friday two weeks prior to the competition).
The priority entry deadline (before which host athletes get priority of entry) is the Friday four weeks prior to the competition
The organiser may elect for reasons of capacity or safety not to accept any paddle up entries. Such decision to be clearly marked on the managed calendar return and published in the Calendar.
The competition organiser may impose a limit on overall number of divisional and open entries, either in the published calendar or at the time of planning the start list.
If such a limit is applied priority…
If this motion is adopted, organisers are asked to indicate if they will not accept paddle up entries in 2020 before the Saturday
7th December
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Nick Penfold
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by Nick Penfold » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:48 pm

The proposal is to allow organisers to specify that they do not want to accept paddle up entries for safety or capacity reasons.

Under the priority system introduced this year, paddle-up places go to the best in their division and weaker would-be paddle-ups don't get entries at top events, so the "safety" argument isn't valid. I think there are other motives behind this motion, and I am opposed to it.

But host division paddlers (the "owners" of the race) should have more priority. As things stand the cut-off date when places are released to paddle-ups is 4 weeks before the competition, and it means that host division paddlers who can't get entries in early and promotees to the host division often can't get a race. The cut-off should be later.

JimW
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by JimW » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:48 pm

I am pretty disorganized so I have often tried to find accommodation within 4 weeks of a race, and depending on where the race is, it often is not easy to do. Moving the priority deadline closer to the race makes it more difficult for organized paddle ups to make arrangements. I can't even begin to imagine why host division paddlers would leave it that late, other than newly promoted paddlers and people as disorganized as me.

I don't think the paddle ups are the problem, I think the problem is host division paddlers who book in advance and then for whatever reason (including presumably simply forgetting) don't turn up and don't bother to tell the organiser so that they can release the place to someone on the waiting list.

As for the ulterior motives, I agree on that, the motion will potentially allow those organisers who have always been opposed to paddle ups to simply not accept them citing reasons which are impossible to validate...

Dee
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by Dee » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:12 am

No ulterior motive that I’m aware of other than safety.


Eg. Some races are less popular than others. So at some div 1s it would be possible to end up with quite inexperienced div 2 paddlers in circumstances where it just isn’t safe. In theory paddlers/coaches should take a judgement, but at lower end not all are able to do so.
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Nick Penfold
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by Nick Penfold » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:36 pm

I can't even begin to imagine why host division paddlers would leave it that late
Some paddlers who work can't know far in advance which weekends they will be free, and risking an entry fee on a race you might not be able to get to is expensive.

Mike Mitchell
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by Mike Mitchell » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:48 pm

Nick Penfold wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:36 pm
I can't even begin to imagine why host division paddlers would leave it that late
Some paddlers who work can't know far in advance which weekends they will be free, and risking an entry fee on a race you might not be able to get to is expensive.
Nick. When I paddled in Prem. My year was planned around events. Friday off work. Entry’s sent by post in advance. The only decision was weather to enter K1,C1 and C2 at the same race.
There is No excuse not to get entry’s in on time. I now do the hole year in Feb on line. Then just cancel it before the payment due datE if something crops up. Think paddlers do not understand that they do not get charged for the entry’s when they actually enter

lesf
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by lesf » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:26 pm

So at some div 1s it would be possible to end up with quite inexperienced div 2 paddlers in circumstances where it just isn’t safe.
Meanwhile anyone can have a judge's run - the inexperience Div 2, a div 3 or div 4 without anyone questioning the safety of this

Dee
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by Dee » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:16 am

lesf wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:26 pm
So at some div 1s it would be possible to end up with quite inexperienced div 2 paddlers in circumstances where it just isn’t safe.
Meanwhile anyone can have a judge's run - the inexperience Div 2, a div 3 or div 4 without anyone questioning the safety of this
No! There are no rules that I know of saying who can enter as an official, but if you refuse paddle ups on safety grounds then I don’t think you could accept them to do an officials run
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by Dee » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:18 am

Mike Mitchell wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:48 pm

... Then just cancel it before the payment due datE if something crops up. Think paddlers do not understand that they do not get charged for the entry’s when they actually enter
But having entered you are still liable for payment and if the organiser chooses not to refund (which they are entitled to do) you will still be charged.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Arrowcraft
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by Arrowcraft » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:01 pm

I think that paddle up devalues Prem. If people want to paddle at Prem races then they can judge.
No Prem paddler should ever be denied a race because it's full of people pretending to be in Prem.

If there must be paddle ups then only the top 5 or maybe 10 should have the right to have a race, to get them ready for Prem...I suppose...if pushed.

CeeBee
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by CeeBee » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:41 pm

I think part of the issue is combined Prem/Div 1 races where the Prem is always on the Saturday and the Div 1 on the Sunday.

Paddlers travelling want to compete both days particularly if you have travelled 300 miles each way. It is also beneficial to your Sunday race if you have raced on the Saturday.

Div 1 paddlers are entering Prem events as officials at the start of the year as they don't know whether they will be ranked higher enough to get offered a paddle up place when it becomes available. I think that at most Prem races with a Div 1 on the Sunday, the officials classes are usually full.

If we had Prem events all ran as Double races, I think there would be less Paddle Up entries.

humphr
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by humphr » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:47 am

Arrowcraft wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:01 pm
If there must be paddle ups then only the top 5 or maybe 10 should have the right to have a race, to get them ready for Prem...I suppose...if pushed.
That’s exactly how it is right now.

I’m sure if the paddlers have the right percentile to paddle to already enable them to paddle up they should be safe enough to do so.
Another parent

Dee
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by Dee » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:50 am

Don’t forget that paddle up does not only apply to 1s to Prem, but also to 2s to 1 and 3s to 2
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

humphr
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by humphr » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:57 am

Dee wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:50 am
Don’t forget that paddle up does not only apply to 1s to Prem, but also to 2s to 1 and 3s to 2
Yes but I fear this will just lead to a “Nope” button and that will be that.

Certain races will have no paddle ups just because the organiser now has the ability to stop it
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JimW
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Re: 6.7 Organiser Discretion on Accepting Paddle Ups

Post by JimW » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:20 pm

humphr wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:47 am
Arrowcraft wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:01 pm
If there must be paddle ups then only the top 5 or maybe 10 should have the right to have a race, to get them ready for Prem...I suppose...if pushed.
That’s exactly how it is right now.

I’m sure if the paddlers have the right percentile to paddle to already enable them to paddle up they should be safe enough to do so.
Not quite, because it is percentile based the paddle ups get in based on ranking order, if the host division was only half full and there were fewer PU applications than the remaining spaces, all would get in. The percentiles only come into effect when there are only a few places available and lots of paddle up applications, and even then the cut off percentile depends on how many places are available.

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